To think that BIL has serious problems?

[arcticpandas]

My sister confided in me last night and obviously I can't talk about this irl but would still like to have people's takes on this.
Background: They both work ft, two kids (school age), not wealthy but not poor. BIL is quite rigid but always polite and generous for gifts for birtdays in the family.
BIL does the weekly grocery shop (he has always insisted on doing this acc. to sis). Now he has admitted that he doesn't pay for all the groceries (selfscan). They were having an argument about money/spendings this week and he told her that he was doing loads to save on spendings. I was quite surprised when my sis told me because I always had him down as a "rule-follower" but this itself didn't seem to bother my sis so much her argument being that they can never prove he didn't "forget" to scan. The worst to her was that he kept a fucking log on how much they had saved due to his "forgetfulness" eg stealing per week/month/year!!! I mean, who does this!!!??? Imagine the time it must have taken him, and why? Like a serial killer keeping souvenirs. I told my sister that I couldn't come over to theirs this Saturday because I just can't stand to face BIL right now. I mean I will be able to see him later but I need to digest.
My sister got all mad at me and said hurtful things about my DH and that if I didn't come this Saturday I don't ever have to bother.
Should I suck it up and go although I can't stand to look at BIL right now (AIBU) or am I justified in wanting some time to digest this before I see him again (AINBU)?

Of course it is.

I think you’d be quite surprised at how common this is. I know of numerous people who are quite open about it. In professional jobs as well with quite a lot to lose.

OP has said that sis justifies BIL’s thieving with precisely that argument - big shop, I’m not stealing from the poor etc. I think it’s disingenuous to suggest no one is making that argument.

I’m curious what you think would happen if we all suddenly decided to break the social contract (as well as the law) and started stealing, say, 20% of our shopping? If we all behaved as BIL does, what would the outcome be?

OP hasn't said she wants to go NC with BIL - just that she doesn't want to see him today because she is disgusted with him and she won't be able to hide it.

It's her sister who is making demands and throwing around ultimatums.

I can't believe she told her DH she'd told you. Did she really think he'd be like 'Great! Was she impressed?' 🙄

How so?

It’s not relevant since it wont happen but I suspect supermarkets would hugely increase security- which they are already doing- to an Amazon shop model.

I’m not talking about OPs BIL who is clearly just trying to get his wife off his back, I’m talking about the posters banging on about everyone paying for him.

Not much then because it’s becomes addictive. It stops being about saving money and becomes I want that.

Because shoplifting is a well studied crime and it’s uncommon for shoplifters to turn to their family to steal (what, I don’t know)

Funnily enough the corporate guy who I know who used to steal little bits and bobs purely for the thrill of it was also addicted to gambling.

It sounds like he has a problem. Shoplifting is addictive.
If my husband was caught shoplifting he would lose his job which would be a major issue for us. He sounds very controlling. If your sister is willing to turn a blind eye then more fool her, this won’t go away. I guess she is expecting you to do what she is doing and carry on as normal and pretend this isn’t happening, but that is your decision not hers. The fact that it appears she has no voice in their relationship would make me concerned for her future. He could ruin their lives and leave her with nothing.

Could you link me to a study, please? I’m genuinely curious about this because it is counterintuitive. If someone is stealing nappies and baby food, that’s one thing. But if someone is developing an addiction to stealing it stands to reason that that will escalate, because addiction is like that. Addicts are known to steal from friends and family in the pursuit of their addiction. This is why I suggest it isn’t an outlandish speculation.

Well, no. It won’t happen because most of us aren’t that selfish. I’m just asking you to imagine that it did. How would supermarket chains pay for this extra security? They wouldn’t get it for free and I’m going to assume it won’t come out of the wages of the higher ups. Increased prices? Redundancies in other areas? Let the shareholders take the hit?

The ‘victimless crime’ narrative is provable nonsense. The things that are stolen are not free. Somewhere along the line, they must be paid for.

I think your reaction to the log book is quite extreme, OP. He's not a serial killer collecting souvenirs, he's a bloke who for reasons of his own gets a buzz out of shoplifting and he likes to see the amount he's nicked going up each week.

I agree with you that shoplifting is a bad thing to do (unless you genuinely can't pay for food) but I wouldn't find it hard to socialise with someone who was doing it. I think that being an alcoholic or being addicted to drugs or not putting in your hours at work or fiddling your taxes are bad things to do as well - would you be unable to talk to someone you knew was doing one of these things, or is it particularly shoplifting and the log?

In fairness the people I know who have done it for the buzz see it as a victimless crime because they are stealing from a faceless corporation (much like what OP describes), stealing from a person, especially a family member is really quite far removed from that.

Drug addicts and gambling addicts steal from their friends and family because they need the money for their addiction, they don't care where it comes from, they just need it to keep going, they aren't addicted to stealing, it is just a necessary byproduct of their addiction.

What do you mean, how would they pay for it?! 😂 have a Quick Look at any supermarkets published accounts to see how much the are spending on capital investment and see how that dwarfs the cost of extra security fit out. You can’t think these places are running on that much of a such a shoe string!

That’s a very fair point. I maintain that someone who can justify stealing can justify it in a variety of contexts, but I agree that the theft is a by-product in the examples I used.

Unfortunately not as I access this sort of information through my job of 20 years so can’t really replace conferences, sector reports and research etc with a link for you

you’re referring to stealing to fund a physical drug addiction, which again, is a different profile of offending but certainly often doesn’t include family

🙄Blimey. No. No I don’t think that.

The point I am making here is that taking a permissive view of what BIL is doing in this case is not logical, because if we all did what he is doing, then the financial impact would cease to be trivial. Justifying what he’s doing by suggesting it’s harmless because it’s trivial when limited to him and a few of his Faganite mates is a failure of logic.

Eh? How would that work?

OK. I see.

Yes, @sandyhappypeople made this point and I agree that the two are not analogous enough to afford a robust comparison. I do maintain, as I did before, that a person who can justify theft in one context is capable of justifying it in another, but I also know they don’t always do so. I also know I wouldn’t trust BIL in my house, so there’s that.

But it’s a moot point because we’re not all doing it, neither are we going to.

It’s normal in life to be able to understand that things happen without having to do them a yourself in response.

because that’s normal, taking a niche activity and pretending the only way you can understand it is by considering the impact of everyone in the country doing it isn’t resonating with other posters as a valid point of view

But eventually he will get caught. Just wouldn’t want to be around when he does

It doesn’t 😂 as if you can use a list of previously shoplifted product in any way after the event 😭

I was of the opinion that in the interests of your relationship with your sister you should just try to forget what she told you but now I see she’s validated and normalised his criminality so yeah - family or no family I don’t associate with thieves and I’d want nothing to do with them

He is so stupid. The money he "saved" will be spent in lost wages and attorney's fees when he gets caught and put in jail.