To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

Amnesty's report on why this is a genocide, not a war. Short video if you don't have time to read, scroll down a bit.

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/

I don't need to answer. You are the one ignoring the facts.

An excellent Amnesty video from 2021 on the origin of the conflict and the apartheid system practiced by Israel (a crime against humanity as per international law). Honestly the best 8min to understand the entire context.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CoFjbnvkmQ0&t=330s&pp=ygUhQW1uZXN0eSBpc3JhZWwgcGFsZXN0aW5lIGNvbmZsaWN0

Ok so if Israel do think Hamas broke the ceasefire and Hamas say the opposite is it your inclination to believe Hamas?

Move to Phase 2 as agreed, including the agreed withdrawal from Gaza. Very simple.

But they are detained. Just like almost 20000 children are dead. That has happened. There is no going back now. Israel should be looking for a way forward surely and that way forward was the agreed upon ceasefire that would see the hostages released and children not being killed. Ceasefires are the most successful way of getting the hostages home and stopping children being killed, we both know that quite why you are dancing around Israels responsibilities here is beyond me. It really reads like you are justifying the continuation of violence which is just beyond me.

You can't pretend to want the hostages home and at the same time not be advocating for Israel to move on with the ceasefire as agreed. They would be home by now if Israel had, how can you not want that?

Yeah all those 0-4 year old soldiers

But that just isn't what happened? Israel 'think'? Since when is what 'Israel think' fact? This isn't Israel says vs Hamas says. Israel refused to move onto phase 2. That's just what happened.

instead demanded an extension to phase 1 including terms which were not part of the original deal which is not what Israel agreed to under the deal brokered in January, then immediately cut off aid to Gaza. Don't get me wrong, I think it's futile to not just hand them all over now anyway.

But some of those terms were things like 'not making a show of the hostage releases' - so I don't think it's quite as clear cut as to be all Israel's fault here.

Accidentally pressed YABU but you’re not!!!

It's my inclination to look at reliable sources. Look at UNICEF, which decried Israel's blockade of food aid to starving population during the 'ceasefire'. There is video footage of Palestinians being shot by drones during the 'ceasefire'.

By the way Israel has a proven track record of lying loooong before Hamas. From bombing the King David hotel, to deliberately bombing the UN base at Qana and killing the women and children sheltering there, to their lies about their murders of Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall, and David Miller the BBC cameraman. (Oh and of course bombing the USS Liberty).
The BBC has been extremely biased: it has not reported what UN and UNICEF and MSF are saying, not reported on the genocide findings of THREE NGOS (UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch), not reported on Israel's apartheid (as per investigations by the ICJ, UN, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem ... I mean everyone of repute except God themselves). The BBC also did not cover S. Africa's presentation to the ICJ that Israel was committing genocide, but live-streamed Israel's defence case the next day. How odd! Couldn't have anything to do with the fact the Middle East editor is a former Israeli soldier...could it??

As Helpful and informative all the links in this thread are, I don’t need them to prove that what the Israeli government is doing is totally disproportionate and barbaric on so many levels - this is common sense. I can’t believe people can argue otherwise, given the ‘rich’ history of prior oppression caused by them in prior years also but somehow ‘it was Palestine that struck first’ and so that makes the level of ‘retaliation’ okay.

You cannot actually be this ignorant 🤦‍♀️

Everyone knows Isreal is committing genocide. The question (or the elephant in the room perhaps) is why we’re all supporting and facilitating it.

People are scared to call them out because they get labelled anti-Semitic. So they have a free license in a way to believe they can get away with crimes that would immediately be labelled as atrocities and crimes against humanity by any other country.

The other thing people seem to conveniently forget is that the Palestinians are (and were) an oppressed people long before the attacks carried out by Hamas on that fateful day in Oct. The Israelis have basically trapped a whole race of people in a compound and are determined to exterminate them and take over the land for themselves. The US and the UK like this plan for their own dubious ends.

No, it’s not good.

It’s not pretence. They should be returned. All these negotiations are with Hamas which is a proscribed terrorist organisation in the U.K., for good reason.

I think they behaved as terrorists and should not be considered much beyond that. Their actions on that day and the weaponised covered men parading victims reinforced that. So yes just release all of them. They have the ability and agency.

The post saying it ‘was a stretch to blame Hamas’ was telling. It’s really not. They don’t need people posting reasons on their behalf.

It’s abhorrent and absolutely catastrophic. How anyone can defend what Israel is doing is beyond me and most people I know. Trying to shut people down with accusations of antisemitism is another layer of awfulness and no, it did not start on the 8th of October, anyone with access to history books and half a brain knows this . They are bloody murderers. I can’t understand how much has been made of Ukraine in comparison to this , both absolutely awful but we are seeing massive loss of life in Palestine whose people are not being offered sanctuary in other counties/Europe . It is absolutely abhorrent.

This 100 percent.

The Palestinians have been living in an open air prison for decades , they are simply trying to obliterate them now.
Also why does no one talk about the Palestinian hostages , how can they have a hostage exchange in the first place ? “Exchange “

So you are pro war and pro violence rather than the method which is proven to get the hostages home. OK.

Certainly Hamas behaved as terrorists. Hamas kidnapped 250 people on Oct. 7th, a war crime. Israel kidnaps 700 children (12+) and far more adults each year and subjects them to abuse..the main charge is stone-throwing (10-20yrs)(https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2023/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-of-palestinian-children-detained-by-israeli-military)

Israel kills Palestinian children every year with impunity - 32 Jan-Sept 2023, 34 in 2022, etc etc for decades (see B'Tselem for numbers). 37 children were tragically killed on Oct. 7th, UN investigation showed at least 7 were by Israeli fire.

Oh and by the way, the terrorist Israeli leaders of the Haganah and the Lethi (terrorists according to Churchill's govt) became Israeli Prime Ministers and Army chiefs. Ariel Sharon, named by the UN as being culpable for the Sabra and Shatila massacres, was later democratically elected PM of Israel.
Begs the question - if you think a 6 month old baby in Gaza is responsible for Hamas's actions - what responsibility lies on Israeli adults who repeatedly voted in war criminals, and on us who have voted in govts that support genocide?

It's truly horrendous. I don't know how anyone can think this is ok.

The unpalatable truth is that Israel and the US want Gaza cleared of people and they'll use any excuse they can come up with to do just that. The far right in Israel want it too and Netanyahu needs to keep them happy or his government collapses.

Trump is salivating at the thought of that prime waterfront land. He's admitted to this. What the US wants, the US gets.

No you are rewriting badly and incorrectly.

I am pro Hamas returning all hostages now, they should have at the last opportunity. I don’t see why negotiations with terrorists are in this case treating Hamas if they were not terrorists.

They should have done it much earlier or not committed the violence at all but you can only go forwards.

It seems a stretch though to lay all the blame for the current killings at Hamas for not going above and beyond the agreed ceasefire rather than Israel for breaking it.

And this is what I said about Hamas. And I stand by it. I will blame the killings of 200 children on the people who won't agree to move on with the ceasefire and who dropped the bombed.

Why shouldn't Israel have released all their hostages before or after Oct. 7th? Lawyers, activists, teachers, doctors, and children. 400 children in Israeli military jails Sept. 2023, most of them for 'throwing stones', 147 of them held indefinitely on administrative leave without charge or trial. Hostages. 12yr olds get 6 mths for 'stone-throwing'. 13-16 yr olds get 10-20yrs. They are tried in military courts- UNICEF says Israel is the only country in the world to do this. One Australian reporter who watched it, back in 2014, described a 'conveyor belt of children's. Heartbreaking.
The numbers of hostages taken by Israel have exploded since Oct. 7th. They are routinely subjected to torture including sexual abuse (see B'Tselem report on this).

So - Israel should have never taken these hostages to begin with and should have released them right? Would you support Palestinians carpet bombing Israel to secure the release of their hostages? Why the double standards?