To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2025/mar/opinion-israels-war-gaza-deliberately-targeting-children-new-un-report

It wasn't ok in WW1/2

CIVILIANS SHOULD NOT DIE

Obviously it is never really "ok" to kill civilians. Obviously civilians should not die. But then you have to accept the reality that if Side A in a war is prepared to do it, and does it, and Side B, with the best of intentions, refuses to do it, Side A will win.

If the Allies in WW2 had refrained from dropping bombs where civilians might be killed, do you really think the Nazis would have done the same?

Of course not. It just would have meant that they won the war, with all the resulting implications for the minorities (civilians) they wanted to deliberately murder.

The op is posting information to counter some of the arguments made by other posters, if there wasn't so many apologists for genocide and the illegal actions of the IDF they wouldn't have had to do this. There were a few posters suggesting the IDF are a moral army with a few bad egg which as the poster has demonstrated is clearly untrue the institution is rotten and protects and emcourages any bad eggs.

@ThisNattyTurtle for continuing this thread 61% of respondents agree with you

if Side A in a war is prepared to do it, and does it, and Side B, with the best of intentions, refuses to do it, Side A will win.
No, that is not a defence to war crimes, committing war crimes is never justified, regardless of the actions of the enemy, and it is a serious violation of international law and human rights. HTH

Yes, I accept what you say. But no, it doesn’t help.

It just means you then have to accept the reality that those prepared to break the rules triumph over those who honourably don't, with all that then follows.

"We weren’t prepared to harm civilians - they commit war crimes but we won't", however honourable, would not have been much comfort to the UK Jews, homosexuals, disabled people etc. rounded up and murdered if the Nazis had won WW2 and taken over the country.

Just be honest about the implications of what you say.

So no rules and free rein for both sides to do what they want? Maybe be honest about the implications of what you want to say.

The rules are to protect civilians. What the Nazis did was a genocide and those that were still alive who perpetrated it were tried and convicted of war crimes, would you have preferred there to be no laws of war and for these people to get away with their horrific actions? Or for the allies to have behaved the same way towards German civilians? Do you apply this thinking to all laws?

They are hardly equally matched. Israel do not worry about being eliminated by Hamas bombs as they have home made rockets and Israel have a state of the art Iron Dome. How many people have been killed by Hamas rockets in the last year and a half versus over 50k Palestinians - it’s not comparable. As someone else pointed out your whole “get them before they get you” approach is also completely illegal.

I do wonder if the Israelis on this board find it so hard to comprehend an innocent civilian because they all join the IDF and receive military training. It is extreme indoctrination.

No, I think it would be better for all sides to obey the rules of war. Even better if no wars happened at all and everyone could live in peace.

But you are not thinking logically. Yes, what the Nazis did was genocide, but we are only free to say that because they were militarily defeated. If the Nazis had won WW2 (and remember it wasn’t me who first brought up WW2) because the Allies had refrained from any actions that might have killed German civilians, they would have ruled Europe and there wouldn't have been any war crime tribunals, would there? The Nazis would have been free to spread their bigoted, murderous actions wherever they wanted.

And I think it would have been immeasurably better if Hamas had not decided to commit foul crimes to deliberately provoke an all-out war with Israel, in the hope that the other Arab nations would then join them in wiping out Israel and all the Jews, which thankfully has proved an unfulfilled hope. And of course Hamas are on record as saying they would return to repeat those actions again and again if their demands weren’t met.

It is an unfortunate and unpalatable truth that sometimes being a pacifist, however honourable that is, just allows further horrors to be committed by those who have no such scruples.

Very well said @Namechangedforgoodreasons

Why did Israel invest so much of their money into the Iron Dome? Because they had to, because otherwise Hamas would have killed many more of their citizens.

Poor Hamas not being able to kill as many people as they would have liked to because Israel has invested so heavily in defence.

As far as I’m aware the UK didn’t commit warcrimes in its defeat of the Nazis?

I have no idea what argument you are trying to make. If the Nazis won, they would in the short term, have got away with genocide but no one can predict long-term what the outcome would have been. Does that in your opinion mean there should be no rules of law because those that commit them may not end up getting convicted?

It is an unfortunate and unpalatable truth that sometimes being a pacifist however honourable that is, just allows further horrors to be committed by those who have no such scruples.
No idea why you have made this leap I am not talking about Israel being a pacifist and doing nothing, we are talking about sticking to the rules of law, which they aren't doing and which is why Netanyahu has been charged with crimes against humanity. Your original post that I responded to was making the argument that Israel shouldn't have to stick to the rules of war because Hamas aren't and I pointed out that, whether you agree or not, that is not justification for committing war crimes. Israel has signed up to the Geneva convention so I assume they endorse and support, on paper anyway, the rules of armed conflict

@LilacPeer well a previous poster was making a point about the 2 sides not being equally matched as if it were somehow Israel’s fault that they have far superior defences.

And please do try to debate without throwing out insults, it’s childish.

I’m not an Israeli. I’m British.

I've only ever seen one Israeli on this board AFAIK and they definitely don't seem extremely indoctrinated.

So am I.

If the Nazis won, they would in the short term, have got away with genocide but no one can predict long-term what the outcome would have been

Blimey.

Oh well, that’s all right then. Not sure all the Jews, homosexuals, disabled people etc. they would have gone on to murder in the conquered countries, as they had already done in Germany and the countries they had already conquered) would have agreed with you.

But I expect she thinks we are undercover IDF.

Ever heard With more power comes more responsibility?

I know … my comment was directed at @RandomWordsThrownTogether really

I think you might have seen my reply before I edited it.

Same

Me too.

I firmly agree with the highly experienced military commentators that the IDF, holding true to being the most moral army in the world, has operated this war with the lowest civilian to combatant ratio, unprecedented in urban warfare especially so densely populated, which will be studied by other militaries for years to come.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davedeptula/2024/07/31/on-the-ground-in-gaza-what-i-saw-of-israels-military-operations/

The whole the IDF is evil, the same or worse than Hamas etc, is calculated propaganda purely to discredit them on the world stage.

What are you on about? I was responding to a scenario you made there is nothing in what I said that needed to be agreed with. I have made my point about war crimes you can continue with inventing scenarios to justify Israel breaking them. I'm done with someone that likes to twist words beyond the point they were making

Oh well, that’s all right then
What do you mean by this? What's alright? I didn't say it was alright I was agreeing with you that if the Nazis had won they would not have tried themselves where did I say that was ok?