To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

We can conflate that soldiers in the IDF have acted badly. Only you are conflating that with religion.

A lot of people have rightly pointed out that the IRA were a terrorist organisation, a group comprised primarily of catholics - do I think people are saying that all catholics are terrorists? Similarly the UVF was a primarily protestant terrorist group, am I saying my partner is a terrorist? If you study logic they start by teaching you about how false logic is applied to things - “all daffodils are yellow, my car is yellow, therefore my car is a daffodil” would be an example or “catholics are in the IRA, the IRA are terrorists, therefore all catholics are terrorists” you can see how using one thing to assume another thing is problematic.

No one is criticising the IDF because of the religion of its members here, people are criticising it because it has: bombed every hospital in Gaza; shot children, doctors and journalists in the head; members have raped women and used objects to rape prisoners to death; it has caused the largest number of child amputees in the world; it has caused the largest number of child deaths in any recent conflict. I could go on!

Yes, it’s sad to see this wrt Hamas a proscribed terrorist organisation.

Honestly none of us know if Hamas or Israel are lying about this as both sides have lied about a lot - Israel has been caught in so many lies that we will of course want independent verification of any of it’s findings - it rarely provides proof! I would say if the kids were strangled they would have produced some evidence - but whether they are lying or not Hamas certainly were complicit in their deaths.

The ordinary people of Gaza rising up against Hamas is good and I hope they manage to get rid of them; however, this does not mean that they think Israel was right or has not committed war crimes. It does not mean that Israel is saving them from Hamas. Israel has murdered a huge number of their family members and they want the fighting to stop - most Palestinians are fed up of being collateral damage and hope that if Hamas leave Israel will stop slaughtering the population. This does not mean that Israel’s actions were just as the end does not always justify the means.

Where am I defending Hamas? You seem desperate to assume that a lack of full support for Israel equals support for Hamas.

I can only say so many times I DON'T SUPPORT HAMAS'S ACTIONS, NOR DO I SUPPORT ISRAELS. Is that clearer?

Me asking for evidence of your claim they were killed with bare hands isnt support for Hamas, it's asking for evidence so I can understand the truth. If you don't like the source I used, furnish me with your own. As I said, the source I found references the head of the forensic institute in Israel, it wasn't the opinion of the article author. It's fine if you aren't happy with that, I'm not claiming to be an expert on the deaths of the Bibas children. I'd just like a source of someone legitimate with some evidence of strangulation. Not because I don't think Hamas are capable of killing babies - I know they are. But because I also believe Israel are.

Sharon entrapped Sabra and Shatila refugee camps after all the fighting men had agreed to leave, then unleashed the a radical Christian militia which rampaged through killing and raping women and children. Some of his soldiers tried to raise the alarm and stop what was happening and he ordered them to shut up. It's all extremely well documented, by the UN and others, read about it.
Sharon openly despised the 2-state-solution and championed aggressive expansion of the Israeli settlements - before Hamas.
"Sharon was the unilateralist par excellence. His main aim when he came to power in 2001 was to eliminate the two-state solution and to determine unilaterally the borders of Greater Israel. Five years later, he had gone some way towards achieving this aim."
Avi Shlaim (Israeli British Oxford history Prof.)

Israeli Apartheid is not my opinion it's fact as per the UN, ICJ, Amnesty, B'Tselem etc etc.

Sharon and his bodyguards stormed into the Al-Aqsa mosque in boots carrying guns. Both are forbidden in mosques. It had absolutely nothing to do with his faith and everything to do with his deliberate disrespect and intentional provocation.

@ImpartialObserver in Sabra and Shatila the bodies of Palestinian women and children were lying in piles on the ground.

Here are Israeli settlers at a wedding. They are stabbing photos of Ali Dawabsheh - an 18-month-old Palestinian who they burned alive in an attack on his village. At the court hearing, settlers taunted Ali's grandfather "where's Ali? Ali's on the barbeque!"
If you're not seeing evidence of Israeli brutality it's because you're choosing not to, it really is that simple.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkd0r1yY10&t=1s&pp=ygUdQWxpIGRhd2Fic2hlaCBzZXR0bGVyIHdlZGRpbmc%3D

@ImpartialObserver in 2005 - before Hamas - this Israeli army captain shot a 13 yr old schoolgirl then walked up and emptied his rifle into her.
One bad egg, right? Except, despite his own soldiers testifying that she was no threat, the captain was acquitted of all charges and allowed to continue in the army.

www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

https://theconversation.com/israels-war-on-gaza-is-deliberately-targeting-children-new-un-report-252398

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank

https://www.btselem.org/video/20250310_israeli_forces_killed_four_children_who_posed_no_threat_in_less_than_a_month

The Israeli defender's mantra:
If a Muslim person criticises Israeli, well it's because all Muslims are extremist jihadist savages dribbling blood from their fangs.

If a reputable NGO/legal team finds Israel is committing war crimes/ genocide/apartheid - like the UN, ICJ, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, Oxfam, Save the Children - it's because they're all anti-Semitic.

If a Western person talks about Israel's war crimes it's because they're just "useful idiots"

If a Jewish person or organisation points out that Israel is committing genocide and war crimes - like B'Tselem, Breaking the Silence, Yesh Din, Na'amod, Jewish Voice for Peace, Jews for Justice for Palestine, Rabbis for Human Rights, Dr. Mark Perlmutter, Prof. Raz Segal, Prof. Omer Bartov, Prof. Amos Goldstein, Prof. Avi Shlaim, Prof. Ilan Pappe, Prof. Neve Gordon, Prof. Norman Finkelstein, Prof. Noam Chomsky - it's because each and every one of them is a "self-hating Jew".

What's that saying again, about how if you think everyone around you is an asshole then maybe - you're the asshole?

B'Tselem charts showing all the Palestinian minors killed by Israeli soldiers from 2010 to 6th Oct. 2023. Over 1/3 aged 0-12 yrs.
https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/since-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident/israel-sec-by-pal/gaza-strip?section=overall&tab=charts&ageSensor=%220%2C18%22

Israeli soldier kidnapping a terrified 5yr old.
11yrs ago. In the West Bank, no Hamas.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wzvKSn9nKJo&pp=ygUhSXNyYWVsaSBzb2xkaWVycyB0YWtpbmcgY2hpbGRyZW4g

Israeli army using an 8 year old boy as a human shield for over an hour as they search houses. WEST BANK, no involvement 7th Oct.

_

Israeli soldiers kidnapping 5 Palestinian children aged 8-12 for picking edible weeds too close to an illegal Israeli settlement. Years before Oct. 7th
West Bank, no Hamas.

@ThisNattyTurtle you continue to alter the narrative of your OP from killing children to pure and simple anti israel rhetoric. Maybe you should have been honest in your OP about the fact that this entire post is just another outlet for anti israel rubbish about apartheid etc.
my suggestion? (and I obvs have no idea where you live) go and live in Gaza if you love them so much and care so much. Take the energy you waste on here and be productive in Gaza city instead. The world would be a better place for it.

@cindyhove well said.

Rather ironic that someone who’s first ground breaking contribution to the thread was ‘There are no illegal occupations full stop!’ should now be berating someone else for not being honest about fact.

“Go and live in Gaza if you love them so much”

😂 what a grown up contribution. So no one can care about people suffering unless they’re willing to go and live in a war zone and face starvation, got it 👌🏻

Even if someone did want to go and live in Gaza….how do you suggest one might go about that given that Israel won’t let anyone in or out.

This kind of posting doesn’t help.

It’s genocide.

The narrative of my thread is - a British ally is using my tax money and UK weapons to commit genocide and slaughter children at a rate not seen in over 20 years - more children than all the conflicts of the last 4 years combined. According to: the UN, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch. I am raising awareness amongst my fellow UK taxpayers that we should stop supporting genocide and war crimes, so that they can push the UK govt.

Every post about Israel's current war crimes (as evidenced by reputable sources including B'TSELEM, Save the Children, etc etc) is met with
"But whatabout Hamas?"
"Whatabout Oct. 7th?"
"Israel doesn't commit war crimes you are just a nasty anti-Semite"
"What else could Israel do?"
So I am addressing these points by showing how Israel was killing and kidnapping children before Oct. 7th, in a place not ruled by Hamas but by a secular pacifist Palestinian govt. I don't understand how else you would like me to reply to them? Ignore them?

From OCHA 2024:
"Onslaught of violence against women and children in Gaza unacceptable: UN experts
06 May 2024

GENEVA (6 May 2024) – UN experts* today condemned the continued and systematic onslaught of violence committed against Palestinians in Gaza, with most victims being women and children over the past seven months.

“We are horrified at details emerging from mass graves recently unearthed in the Gaza Strip. Over 390 bodies have been discovered at Nasser and Al Shifa hospitals, including of women and children, with many reportedly showing signs of torture and summary executions, and potential instances of people buried alive,” the experts said.

They noted that women, girls and children overall are among those most exposed to danger in this conflict, and that as of 29 April 2024, of 34,488 Palestinians killed in Gaza, 14,500 have been children and 9,500 women. Another 77,643 have reportedly been injured, of which 75% are estimated to be female. Over 8,000 others are reported missing or under the rubble – and the experts noted that at least half of them can be assumed to be women and children. They also noted that an estimated 63 women, including 37 mothers are being killed daily and 17,000 Palestinian children are believed to have been orphaned since the war on Gaza began."

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/05/onslaught-violence-against-women-and-children-gaza-unacceptable-un-experts