To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

Hamas took these people and murdered others on Oct 7 so the blame is on them for that. Sadly and horrendously that was what they decided to do. Given that they could have decided to release hostages at any time. There was a pause for some, no need to wait to release them all.

People want them back. The majority in the ROW would likely have thought all returning would have been better than not.

It’s a disgrace that we are contributing our taxes for this butchery.

It's allowed in a situation called a war.

But unfortunately that's not what Israel agreed to in the ceasefire deal. They agreed hostages would be returned in two distinct phases, then reneged on that agreement demanding extensions and further hostage releases and refused to enter into the second phase which would have seen the rest released. They would have all been home by now had Israel not disregarded the deal they agreed to.

Can you clarify what your point is here? You don't think Israel should have moved onto the 2nd phase of the ceasefire as agreed and gotten the hostages home as agreed and stopped blowing up children as agreed you think Hamas should just have released them and then everything would be fine for everyone? You don't think Israel should have any responsibilities here, just Hamas?

What Hammas did on Oct 7th was absolutely awful, but it wasn't the start - it was the culmination of decades of events.
Much of world was initially supportive of Israel but the scale of the slaughter and destruction is such that it is completely morally unjustifiable. I'm absolutely revolted by the death and maiming of so many children, and how many are now orphaned and homeless. I feel for the hostage families as each day reduces the chance of getting their loved ones home.
And for what! Hammas has not gone away, the conflict and injustice will continue, it will remain a running sore in the region and the world. Israel will be less safe not more.
I'm outraged by Israels land grab in both Gaza and the West Bank.
I'm also furious that our government is supporting this Israeli regime contrary to majority opinion in the UK.
Thank you for your post OP. There hasn't been enough discussion of this conflict on MN.

Israel does targeted strikes, very effectively.
Hamas does wildly inaccurate strikes, very poorly.
If Hamas had any respect for the people of Palestine, they wouldn’t be hiding in populated areas, in or under populated buildings. They are scum, plain and simple.

Targeted strikes where 70% of their victims are women and children? So what you are saying is Israel knew they would kill 200 children but just didn't care, the ends justified the means to them?

They would rather do 'targeted strikes' that kill 200 children in a few days rather than move onto phase 2 of the ceasefire deal where no one else dies and the hostages are home. Doesn't that sound like 'scum' to you?

I don’t think the October 7th hostages should be detained and likely tortured. Given they did choose the horrendous actions in October 7th Hamas should have used the opportunity to release all of them instead of parading a few next to terrorists with weapons.

Do you know what Israeli and US government officials wrote on bombs sent into Gaza?

It's utterly horrifying

Are they target practice when they are sleeping in tents?

Again, and with utmost respect, you are completely ignoring the ceasefire deal Israel agreed to then broke. That is why hostages remain detained and likely tortured. They would have all been home now had Israel not broken the deal they agreed to. Hamas did have an opportunity to release them - phase 2 of the deal Israel made and then refused to honour.

If Israel had complied with the ceasefire deal and moved to Phase 2, there would have been further releases of hostages. Why do you think that Israel should be able to ignore its own commitments?

Those saying 'this is war!' no, this has the highest kill rate (ie number per time) of children of any conflict since the Rwandan genocide. This has the highest rate of killed healthcare workers - see MSF talking about the deliberate targeting of their premises and vehicles. The highest number of murdered journalists - see the International Committee for the Protection of Journalists. That's not part of a modern war waged by a super-high-tech army.

Yes there are lots of other awful conflicts but the rate of child slaughter is highest in Gaza and we are supplying the weapons along with the US and Germany. The militias from Sudan and the Congo are not being hosted in the White House and Downing Street. They're not raking off their military fatigues, wiping children's blood of their hands and coming to play football in UEFA. Israel is. Why?

Do Israel think Hamas broke the ceasefire?

Don’t forget October 7th. Hamas had agency then and have it now. It was barbaric and at any time hostages could be returned.

Everyone saying that Israel broke the ceasefire - the timeline on the BBC says that the ceasefire was already over, and that Hamas had rejected all attempts to extend, whereas Israel had agreed.

Despite the absolutely appaulingly cruel show made of the hostage releases.

Hamas has also thrown Al Jazeera out of Gaza, and there are many confirmed reports of aid workers being and sheltering terrorists (and their weapons)

What is the solution here? Hamas won't rest until Israel is destroyed. What is it that you want Israel to do? Just sit there, taking hits forever?

Those asking 'what else could Israel do?' well at the very least they could use smart bombs, use ground forces, not invade and burn (not bomb) hospitals, not execute patients with their hands cuffed behind their backs and IV lines and plaster casts on (bodies found around Al-Shifa hospital), not fire 355 bullets into the body of 5 year old Hind Rajab as she hid in the car amongst the bodies of her 15yr old cousin and father, and not bomb the ambulance that they had specifically authorised to go save her metres from her location. I mean, just a few tips off the top of my head.

But what Israel could have actually done is apply international law and get the hostages back on the 9th Oct 2023 and the disarmament of Hamas. That was Hamas's terms. Israel could have turned to the secular PA in the West Bank (no involvement 7th Oct.) and said we will end our illegal occupation, stop shooting your unarmed children dead (AVG. 30/yr), stop kidnapping an average 700 Palestinian children per year and release those child and civilian hostages we are holding, withdraw a majority of our illegal settlements that are stealing your land, and let you build your state in accordance with international law and about 20 UN resolutions. Hamas's charter says that once Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders (ie, returns 22% of historic Palestine to the Palestinians to actually have a state) Hamas would lay down its arms.

Why is the slaughter of over 17,000 children more acceptable than making Israel abide by international law?

For those saying Hamas broke the ceasefire, see below from PBS.
Btw Israel killed 150 civilians in Gaza during the 'ceasefire' with dronea
See Amnesty and B'Tselem for corroboration. They also blocked aid against the terms of the ceasefire. Only one Israeli was killed, a soldier killed by friendly fire

www.pbs.org/newshour/world/why-did-netanyahu-end-the-gaza-ceasefire

Hamas's charter says that once Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders (ie, returns 22% of historic Palestine to the Palestinians to actually have a state) Hamas would lay down its arms.

That is not my understanding.. plus, if they go back to the 1967 borders, Egypt gets Gaza and Jordan gets the West Bank - and we know how well that went previously.

Again, that's nothing to do with the ceasefire deal Israel agreed to.

You didn’t answer. Do Israel think Hamas broke the ceasefire?

Phase 1 of the ceasefire deal was indeed over. Hamas did not need to extend that phase. The next stage was phase 2 which would have seen the release of remaining hostages. Israel refused to engage with phase 2 and instead demanded an extension to phase 1 including terms which were not part of the original deal which is not what Israel agreed to under the deal brokered in January, then immediately cut off aid to Gaza. Don't get me wrong, I think it's futile to not just hand them all over now anyway.

It is not. That is a horrifying remark

"However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." From the charter. They also reject anti-Semitism and clarify that discrimination or intolerance is rejected.
And a top Hamas official saying they would lay down arms if they got a 2 state solution https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438

While I completely condemn and abhor Hamas, nonetheless their updated charter is more moderate than centrist and right Israeli govt parties which completely reject the 2 state solution.

But the broader point was, Israel could have defeated Hamas and got its hostages back just by following international law. if it had rewarded the PA for being pacifist and law-abiding and cooperative, with a state, it would have completely erased Hamas's raison d'etre and its support. Instead Israel intensified the kidnapping of men women and children from the West Bank, and the murderous pogroms of the armed Israeli settlers (the unofficial state militia), and the shooting of children in their homes and streets. All well-evidenced by Save the Children, Amnesty, B'Tselem, etc etc etc