To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

We seem to be talking from alternative realities. Not much I can add.

I don’t think Sharon ever had a mandate to destroy the West Bank and Gaza and wipe out Palestinians, despite actually having the military force to be able to do so, so I don’t get the comparison?

Sharon also never invaded Gaza and with thousands of ISRAELI CIVILIANS burnt, gang raped, slaughtered and pillaged through it, and took civilian hostages including babies and the elderly.

Don’t ever remember seeing reports of the near naked, dead bodies of Palestinian civilians being dragged through the streets of Israel tied to motorbikes or in the back of pick up trucks while being attacked, spit on and cheered either.

Do you bang on about Israel’s apartheid but accuse Sharon of starting the second Intifada by making a peaceful visit to the holiest site in Judaism?

Why is it so provocative for Jewish people to visit there again?

Most of the people giving birth to the children being blown up wouldn’t have been able to vote

I don't think its my reading comprehension that needs looking at. I said people giving birth. Given that the average age of a new mother in Gaza is 19 - my statement stands.

A typo of before (for ober) ?

You quoted my post in your previous response though No?

I referred to the majority of Gazans who voted for Hamas in 2006 knowing full well what their charter was and the constant conflict voting in a terrorist organisation with a charter to wipe out Israel would continue to cause.

Those Gazans are the parents and grandparents of the children being killed today.

Why are you ignoring that?

Do you think they thought that would bring peace to Gaza?

That’s kind of the same thing as saying the atrocities of Oct 7th were planned and carried out, the filming the celebrations in the streets while dragging dead bodies around to hit and spit on, the holding babies hostage etc, was all to to make peace with Israel, then being surprised that it caused all out war?

There have also been many comments on this board stating the IDF is evil.

That’s the IDF as a whole, as it is not differentiated to a minority of soldiers who may have committed misconduct as there would be in any army in a war.

The IDF comprises the majority Jewish people who are risking their own lives to fight for the security of their country. Jewish people mandatorily have to serve in the IDF.

What can we conflate from that?

I think Hamas, like the IRA, are terrorists and that the label is factual. They use violence to produce a political result. 'The term 'freedom fighter' is used for a terrorist you agree with e.g. if you are an Irish Nationalist you might term the IRA in its various incarnations, 'freedom fighters' (but you might not). 'Militant' tends to be applied to people who go in for aggressive civil disobedience e.g. Just Stop Oil and the Suggragettes would fall into this category - they either harm themselves or do damage to objects, but do not intend to cause harm to people or animals.
Both Hamas and the IRA deliberately pick soft targets like women and children, as well as security forces, in pursuit of a political agenda. Both organisations can be described as terrorist.

Sorry, I had forgotten it was Hezbollah in the Lebanon and last year - last year is a bit foggy as my DH died and not all clear what went on, tbh. Hamas did start using letters instead of phones etc to plan Oct 7th, I think because they knew Israel was tapping their phones.
So, not made up, got mixed up and made a mistake and did not check - sorry.

Either "Israel is the only democracy in the ME" or "Gazans are responsible for their electoral choices". But that's a minor point.
The bigger one is nothing justifies genocide. Nothing.

Every sufficiently large army would have some psychopaths. We are not talking about them here. We are talking about the actions for which ICC issued arrest warrants for Netanyahu and his then head of the army.

There are many posts on here stating the IDF is evil, a murderous entity, etc.

A quick advanced search will show thousands.

Remember this is a group of majority Jewish citizens of Israel fighting in a war. Many of them young men and women.

That is what I was referring to and responded to posts responding to mine.

We are talking about Israelis, not Jews. Israelis have to serve in the IDF, whether they are Jews or not - is that important? Jews who are not Israeli citizenship do not have to serve in the IDF.
Legally, palestinians are resisting the occupation, Israelis are fighting the resistance. We can call it a war (like war on drugs, war on free speech, etc), but it's not a war between two countries.
We are also saying the US is supplying the weapons. And the UK supplies the intelligence and some parts for the military.

There are several organisations that are reporting the actions of idf members that have committed war crimes. This is not something unusual.

not that long time ago several British army forces were faced criminal charges.

idf has accused several organisations/ Palestinians of being Hamas members and without providing any proof about it. They’ve also agreed safe routes with aid members for them striking at them directly and killing them. They’ve accused Hamas of hiding in tunnels below hospitals and when they’ve released the videos for proof this accusation these videos are full of misinformation and 0 proof of Hamas being there.

if I see videos where idf committing war crimes, bombing buildings whilst laughing at it , filming themselves whilst wearing underwear from Palestinian women, or if I see news that they’ve killed one more time innocent journalists or doctors or aid members , can’t I disagree with IDF and criticise it? ? Why not? Because it’s an army is full of Jewish citizens and therefore is antisemitic ? I don’t think that should be the case. Idf should be hold to the same standards to the British army. You say it’s a minority, what I know is that thousands of idf members have been reported to the icc and if found to have committed war crimes then they should pay for it.

I think you’re struggling to understand. We’re talking about 93% of the Gazan population being held responsible for 7% of peoples choices…19 years ago.

The last vote was in 2006. Let’s say it was a free vote and people weren’t pressured to vote for Hamas. To be old enough to vote in 2006, you’d be 37 today. The average age of a first time parent in Gaza is 19. So parents of the babies born today, weren’t able to vote. Potentially the grandparents would have. I don’t have anything in common with my grandparents voting choices 19 years ago and certainly wouldn’t want to be blown to bits or starved to death as a result of that choice.

Even if every 2006 voter remained a full Hamas supporter and did agree with the decision to carry out the October 7th attacks….that leaves 93% of the Gazan population that didn’t choose the current government and with the best mental gymnastics in the world can’t be even remotely held culpable.

Regardless, my point now and 38 pages ago - is that civilians should be protected in war. Whether their parents, grandparents or even they, voted for the current government isn’t relevant. Israel must act within international law and it isn’t doing so. That’s my issue and will remain so however many what abouts you can find.

I believe Israeli officials when they state that strangulation was the COD.
This has been widely reported.

I'm not going to demand "evidence" because that would put me on a similar scum level to Owen Jones' when he demanded "evidence" over the rape and murder of women on Oct 7.
Has the same identifiable ring to it, and there really is evidence to suggest that antisemitism is at the rotten core of such requests, because we can't possibly believe those darned Jews, can we.

i can’t believe what idf says not because they’re Jewish but because they have lied for their own benefit during this war. Same way id not trust boris Johnson about Covid measurements or Donald trump.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/who-really-killed-the-bibas-babies/

I can’t find any evidence of strangulation. I can see that the head of the forensic institute said there was no evidence they were killed in a bombing, but nothing to say how they did die. Do you have a link?

Also you are the only one mentioning Jews and anti semitism. Not agreeing with Israel doesn’t equal antisemitism. In the same way not agreeing with Robert Mugabe doesn’t make me racist.

I try not to conflate the Jews with the IDF personally. I don’t believe what the IDF say no, because they are well documented to be liberal with the truth.

Yes, I'm sure that sort of "voice" would be more than welcome within Labour circles.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/forensics-chief-confirms-id-of-body-of-shiri-bibas-no-evidence-she-died-in-explosion/

Not an airstrike, murdered with bare hands.

Of course, here we all are crying (or not) about dead children in Gaza while simultaneously attempting to blame the deaths of babies at the hands of Hamas on Israel.

Fuck, even the Gazans are out on the streets protesting Hamas and you're defending them because "Israel is liberal with the truth and Hamas said it was an airstrike" 😂

"The Bibas family described the deaths of the three hostages as murder, but asked that the manner of the death not be shared publicly.
“The family has not received any such details from official sources,” it said in a statement earlier on Saturday.
“The family requests to cease adding details regarding the fact that Shiri and the children were murdered by their captors.
“Yarden and the family want the world to know this was murder, without delving into any specifics,” it said.
On Saturday, Hamas reiterated that the Bibas family was not killed in captivity in Gaza.
“The false allegations that the criminal (Israeli) occupation is disseminating about the death of the Bibas children at the hands of their captors are merely baseless lies and fabrications,” Hamas spokesman Hazem Qassem said in a statement."

Whether you believe the Bibas family statement or Hamas statement. I know whom I'd rather believe. Let's not forget they should never have been kidnapped by scum terrorists anyway. A fact many appear to forget whilst attempting to excuse hamas and look for any possible reason why it might be Israel's fault. The reason for their deaths is totally on Hamas and their supporters.

The real point of course is that we just don't know. None of us do. Which makes it a bit futile using it to point score the way some posters have on this thread.

Oh well, if the IDF said that it must be true. Not.

Theyre the biggest liars on the planet. Awful that the Bibas children died, any child killed is a tragedy. But if someone killed my child, I wouldn’t want several thousand other children and babies killed and mutilated in revenge.
All those children and babies who’ve been burnt and sniped in Gaza? Denied aid? Denied medical help cos the doctors have been taken by the IDF and murdered? Having amputations without anaesthesia? 2000lb bombs dropped on plastic tents to vaporise anyone within ? And on and on.

If they released the post mortem you still wouldn't believe the 'biggestn liars on the planet', it seems you'd rather believe a terrorist organisation who you don't describe as 'the biggest liars on the planet'. Fortunately, ordinary Gazans are calling out Hamas and want them gone, shame that Westerners don't appear to follow that aim too.