Too harsh on ND child?

[itscoldplay]

DS ADHD (and dyspraxia. Also likely ASD, but it’s his ADHD behind most of the challenging behaviours).

He’s 10, and just really hard work on the weekend especially when not medicated. Constant negativity when he doesn’t get his own way. Zero frustration tolerance. But what DH and I find most infuriating is the wind up behaviour, the back chat and rudeness.

Do you let some things like that go? The pestering siblings for example? Tonight DS, DD and I watching TV, cuddled up. He bothers DD, so I move to sit in between. He bothers her again, I send him out of the room for 5 minutes. He bothers her the third time, he is sent straight for his shower and bed. Cue major anger which for him means constant back chat, refusal to let anyone else have the last word, aggressive behaviours (I don’t think he would ever really hurt us but he will test the waters by gently pushing me or DH). “Shush”ing us constantly when we’re speaking, really disrespectful stuff. Eventually he is sobbing, saying he has a headache. No remorse in these scenarios typically (he is much better behaved at school and will always be remorseful if he does wrong, same with friends).

We try our best to keep our cool but it does end up in taking away tech for 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks because he doesn’t stop even when told. That’s what he was sobbing about tonight, he’s now lost his iPad for 2 weeks.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DHRByY1JLOx/?igsh=Y2gzcnA5Yml3ODFt

I don't think it's harsh and I don't think it's inevitable for ND children to make a pest of themselves.

I agree with others that coming of his medication is obviously not working for him. I also find that the side effects get better the longer I consistently take it and get worse after a break. If he's building up a tolerance then the titration team should increase the dose until he reaches a plateau.

The only issue with the punishment is that now you've taken the ipad for 2 weeks, what's the next step if he behaves badly next weekend? Extending the time is unlikely to mean much to him as ADHD includes very poor time perception.

I would not tolerate disrespect (and never did from my ADHD/ASD stepdaughter). If she spoke to me rudely I'd tell her to try again to phrase what she had to say politely and if she persisted then she had to go somewhere else until she was ready to use her manners.

I suggest that you refrain his "bad behaviour", "rudeness" etc as him having exceeded his ability to cope and him looking for solutions, and specifically looking for you to help him.

If you see his behaviour as a cry for help rather than a personal failing or attack on you, you will automatically respond from a better, more helpful place.

My daughter has PDA and used to tantrum loads. When she was diagnosed, I realised that her "tantrums" were actually panic attacks and what she needed was support, not punishment etc, and just this change in understanding was utterly transformative for us.

And so I offer you this one piece of advice - just try coming from a place of compassion for his struggle in that moment and see how this automatically changes how you handle it.

OK here's another two suggestions:

1. sensory diet - if you can afford it, get him assessed by a sensory integration therapist, who will give you a tailored programme of activities, exercises, foods which will help.

2. take part in a parenting class for parents with a ND child - these can be really helpful in terms of letting you explore why you are doing what you are doing and giving you the go ahead to try new things.

My audhd similarly winds up sibling. Its mainly when waiting so queuing for theme parks i have to separate them. But also the car.
maybe try to estimate how long till he gets bored so tv onky 30 min programs etc.
he probably does feel you favour her.
i think ideally 1-2-1time with each. And them being together more like a playdate for younger kids so realising its too much after 1-2 hours

i actually have one get up much earlier than the other as eldest gets distracted in the mornings

@Arran2024 Speaking as an ND adult who was a ND child, just because someone is ND doesn’t mean they are never rude or badly behaved. Not everything needs to be reframed. That’s not actually a helpful model in terms of learning to cope in the adult world.

Yes, I agree with this. I got the "arguing with your child" vibe too from op's post.

It certainly is trying op. I had to give myself a 'time out' yesterday, because I could feel myself getting irritated. I was so drained and lucky to have dh to take over. Ds loops, has no regard for his own volume, or the personal space of others (which we're actively working on), and at times he'll talk nonstop; it is exhausting.

Hugs to all of you ND Mums; we're all doing the best we know how, and striving to improve. I'm always researching ideas to help ds; dcs are all different, and I've experienced a lot of trial and error. I feel that I'm finally making a little progress with the positive reinforcement, recognising the early signs that ds is overwhelmed, because it can go 0-100 fast and melt down mode is not easy to alleviate.

I have recently set some house rules, which he is a fan of (I was fearful they wouldn't go down well, so this was surprising). I am trying to make ds feel that he has some control where possible. I askee him if he agrees with a (rule i know he'll like) or if he thinks I could change it. This worked well. They are straight to the point, very literal, and have a couple of simple pics/hearts on to make him feel it is from a place of warmth for all of us. He has pointed out that one of my rules isn't quite right and told me how to rectify it, he isn't wrong either! 😂

Ds is in a heightened state after school, so I now know to choose my words carefully on our way home, and let him talk. I have to balance it with attention for my NT child and reply to ds to show he is heard, then say "I'll just ask dc2 about his day now then come back to you again." Everything needs to get so slow, calm and he needs ample warning of what is coming next.
When he does something wrong, I remind him of what he is supposed to do. For example "Oh, we are always so kind and sensible, do you want to come talk about it somewhere quiet with <insert name of cuddly toy>? you can remind me too, because I messed up the other day." This has resulted in a much better response from him, than any punishment ever has. He will repeat similar to his little brother when he makes a mistake. I find using "we", not singling him out helps him feel less shame as well.

I didn't say they were never rude or badly behaved. I am suggesting am alternative way to come at the behaviour. Sometimes it will indeed require a chastisement of some sort. A time out even. But if done from a non exasperated place by the parent it will come across as helpful, not draconian. You can't turn things round in a day but imo the OP needs a change of perspective and that is what I am suggesting.

Very interesting thread.

Avoid creating situations that are likely to lead to bad behaviour and arguments Yes, this means a quieter life, but won’t it mean that the child will be unprepared when he is in a similar situation outside his home? For ex as a teen sitting in the cinema with his friends. Isn’t it better to learn at home first, where people will always love you, than avoid the situation for an easy life?

(please don’t think I’m being sarcastic, this is a debate I’m having my DH about our ASD son and I’m genuinely interested)

These kids need more scaffolding than most. What you want is unremarkable - a fully operational teen - but it is touch and go for many of these young people. Some will just drop out and stay at home and sleep and play video games, others will get into trouble....we can't just push them into situations they can't handle.

There is no evidence that a "tough love" approach offers the scaffolding these kids need. I mean, you can keep trying it, but chances are it won't work.

My daughters are 25 and 27 now and took much longer than other kids to get to the pretty ok place they are both at now.

They benefitted from more not less emotional and practical support.

Concretely what are you saying? Not to put him in the difficult situation as he might never be in a position to encounter it IRL?
We are talking about watching a movie with people he knows, my DS is about to start secondary school (mainstream), is invited to playdates/parties etc so this is an activity he might very well encounter. Isn’t it better to be able to ‘rehearse’ at home first?

I’m not saying put him in a difficult situation on purpose, though. Just not avoid situations that he very likely will have to handle on his own later on.
Does that qualify as ‘tough love’??

I guess I would say don't send him off to these events if he can't handle them because often teenagers don't get second chances. Some ND kids are better one to one than with a group. Neither of mine could do clubs for example - it always went spectacularly wrong.

Anyway, the cinema outing is a very specific example. I'm talking more about an overall approach. I guess I mean don't set kids up to fail by forcing or encouraging them to do things they can't do, even if it looks like sth you really want them to enjoy.

Reminds me of EHCP review today and 'targets'.
Caseworker thought it might be a good idea to add as a target 'will be able to engage up to half hour in a group chat'.
He can currently do 15min, but knows when he is overwhelmed and takes himself off to 'process' the conversation.
I get it from NT perspective it would be 'nice' to have bc then box can be ticked, but I can't ask my child to stay for extra 15 min to appease some nonsensical conversation rule.
He will get there on his own time eventually.
Mine has ADHD too and just can't stop talking if excited about subject. Not that we aren't trying but because of his condition. Some things they just can't do yet.

The caseworker needs a kick up the arse with her ablist bollocks. She may as well write “be less autistic” as a goal. Awful.

Tbh, apart from one single tutor (ND herself so didn't try to change the inherent autism traits), the whole field from SALT to OT to EP are full of the ridiculous advice.
Child cannot cope with more than 3 people in the group? Send him to mainstream to 'get used to it'.
Child doesn't make eye contact? Make it a target.
I obviously reject this, which makes me a troublemaker and I bear the consequences of it all the time.
No one would ask wheelchair user to try and walk. I have no idea why professionals just don't get it.

Depends on which medication it is. Dexamfetamine absolutely has a tolerance factor to it

Not so much that stopping every weekend is beneficial if behaviour is much worse.

My son is about to be assessed for adhd and he is just like this.

its so tough but try not to get into a back and forth with him.

interestingly (and I’m not proud of this) my son only responds when I finally lose my shit and properly yell at him to go to his room.

Removing the iPad for that length of time is far too long!

The punishment needs to be proportional

’please don’t speak to me like that’

’if you continue with this attitude I am going to remove iPad time today’

3rd time - iPad removed

I take it for narcolepsy. It is absolutely better for me to take a day off and sleep all day than to continue taking my full dose 7 days a week. If I hadn't been doing that for the previous 10 years I'd have reached the maximum dose long before now and would be looking at the prospect of no quality of life 7 days a week for ever more rather than for one or two days a week.

Simple as that, hey?

The op has actually said that extended time without the iPad makes his behaviour improve. It’s the same with my son and his console.

Yes, same unfortunately @Zippidydoodah . I lost my shit this morning, marched him back to the house and told him he wasn’t going to school. He was full of the sorry’s and pleases then and actually apologised when I picked him up from school too. Doesn’t help our cause does it. Maybe going ballistic finally gives them the dopamine hit they’re craving.

God am I pleased it’s not just me! Solidarity 💐

My DS has ADHD. He us D to wind us all up but I'd breath deeply and if he lost something as a punishment I'd offer him something else instead. Eg if he lost his game boy I'd take him to the park to play football.

I am diagnosed with ADHD and medication is a lifesaver. This “break” thing you speak of is only good for people that can cope without it when at home. Your DC obviously is like many of us and needs a slow release version that is not stopped, no breaks. Starting and stopping medication every week is going to put his emotions, and cause his control over impulses and focus to be wildly inconsistent….so yeah he’s going to impulsively blurt something rude because he has NO stability in medication. You can’t punish ADHD out of someone. You can’t withhold their medication and expect them to behave as well as they do while medicated. That’s like knocking an amputee out of a wheelchair and then punishing them because they take too long to drag themselves up a ramp and they’ve been rude and grumpy about having to do it by dragging themselves up with their eyelashes.

He’s 10, and just really hard work on the weekend especially when not medicated. Give the kid his meds.

We went through a really lovely patch of behaviour before half term but the break from medication over the holidays was tricky and we’ve actually just had to up his dose as it wasn’t working anymore (maybe he has had a growth spurt, not sure). Give the kid his meds.

Finding a way to regulate his emotions and teach him how to do so is probably going to be the best thing you can do….. This poster has the problem spot on, and the answer is his medication! He can’t retain and apply your advice to modify his behaviour without the medication.

This morning escalated as well unfortunately, I don’t think his latest medication is working all that well, and he then went on a spiral about how his friends aren’t good friends (it wasn’t even in context) so I have to admit I was quite harsh and pointed out that he’s rude to us, awful to his sister, if he claims his friends aren’t also a problem, perhaps it’s in fact him who is the problem.

Fuck me, that’s abusive. You write you KNOW the problem is his medication isn’t working but you TELL your child who is struggling with friendships and looking for a shoulder to cry on that HE is the problem? Why the fuck didn’t you tell him, hey it’s probably because your medication sucks and I want to get you on to something that has no breaks…

Fuck me, this kid’s self worth and self esteem must be in the toilet. To have your own mother not in your corner and basically say you deserve to not to have good friends because you’re rude and awful…

And he is 10!!!

This isn’t a stroppy NT teenager, this is a disabled child being told he’s a piece of shit because of how his disability affects him and his ability to make and keep friends.