Too harsh on ND child?

[itscoldplay]

DS ADHD (and dyspraxia. Also likely ASD, but it’s his ADHD behind most of the challenging behaviours).

He’s 10, and just really hard work on the weekend especially when not medicated. Constant negativity when he doesn’t get his own way. Zero frustration tolerance. But what DH and I find most infuriating is the wind up behaviour, the back chat and rudeness.

Do you let some things like that go? The pestering siblings for example? Tonight DS, DD and I watching TV, cuddled up. He bothers DD, so I move to sit in between. He bothers her again, I send him out of the room for 5 minutes. He bothers her the third time, he is sent straight for his shower and bed. Cue major anger which for him means constant back chat, refusal to let anyone else have the last word, aggressive behaviours (I don’t think he would ever really hurt us but he will test the waters by gently pushing me or DH). “Shush”ing us constantly when we’re speaking, really disrespectful stuff. Eventually he is sobbing, saying he has a headache. No remorse in these scenarios typically (he is much better behaved at school and will always be remorseful if he does wrong, same with friends).

We try our best to keep our cool but it does end up in taking away tech for 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks because he doesn’t stop even when told. That’s what he was sobbing about tonight, he’s now lost his iPad for 2 weeks.

We are into the positive reinforcement approach as well, and not punishments. It is working well for ds.

I suspect that some of the argumentative and ‘needing to be right or have the last word’ responses from posters here are dopamine seeking behaviours in themselves.

Sorry, you replied to someone quoting someone else. My response was for the original poster.

Ah no problem. I was thinking it must certainly be time for me to sleep now as I don't remember saying this stuff 😴

I am firmly in the positive reinforcement camp, no sudden lengthy punishments, and do what works best for you, your family and your child. As another poster said, you meet one, you meet one. We all just have to do the best we can for our families. We know our own children the best, and I have found it can definately be trial and error.

Took a while for me figure w adhd DS that he escalated quickly as defensive response. Which made situation worse. (And he is always yelled at, bad, wrong etc while siblings watch w smug faces)

I started to instead, pull him in for a hug. Take him to another room to talk. Because he couldn’t really control self all the time, in the moment - so punishing not effective. Siblings can’t watch a smug faces if we calmly talking in next room.

It made house less stressful, and quieter and he’s not as afraid & defensive when does wrong,

A few things stand out to me.
One is to give a gentle reminder that not actively punishing doesn't mean you are accepting a behaviour.
Another that he mentions how much criticism he gets. He is obviously upset by the criticism. So I guess you can extrapolate it doesn't work if he funds it upsetting but still does criticism attracting behaviours.
The other is that you said this "DS is very good at creating and sucking us into the ADHD vortex". Are you attaching intent to his behaviour that is really how it makes you feel, not what he plans? Presumably he isn't a calculating family-controlling mastermind? He's 10.

We've found the complete opposite. He was quiet whilst on it, but 10x worse after for a long time. We've cut down completely to screens for 2 hours per weekend and none on weekdays, and it was a tough first few weeks but has hugely helped longer term with him being calmer and getting along with sibling better.
There's even a difference directly after it on weekends still, but not as bad as before and i wouldn't agree with completely stopping it as its part of society now.

I wonder if the first thing to do is to find out what actually helps him calm down? I don't mean distract him with tech but there must be something that helps him not get so fired up that he could do on a train when he feels enough is enough to get him to a safe space to explode. And also what behaviours will keep him calmer for longer, so when something does happen he isn't so stressed that he reacts quickly.

I watched this documentary with Alistair Campbell about managment of stress, and they use a bottle to show how stressed he gets, and then all the things that he does to increase the length of the bottle i.e. walking, running, avoiding alcohol etc.. so it stops getting full.

Maybe start with what you do to calm down and take it from there, or even how do you recognise you are angry in the first place.

@itscoldplay That was a really daft 'consequence'...only make consequences that you can realistically follow through.

Regarding him physically ''pushing''..nip that RIGHT in the bud, as it's literally pushing boundaries, and when he is towering over you at 15/16 he will be very strong.

Punishments must be followed through, the worst thing you can do is to give in.

this shows you are 'weak'.
You are lucky to have a husband there- it's much harder on your own.

At least one of you can go out to get some peace.

By ''punishment'' I don't mean physical punishment - but things like ''not doing a favourite activity for an hour or so.

Winding his sister up could suggest boredom. Was he watching something of his choice or your choice? I have one diagnosed ASD child and one suspected one… when they start winding each other up I usually try to distract and find an alternative activity for them.

Actually see how his behaviour is for 2 weeks without the iPad. My daughter suspected adhd and is on the pathway at school. Her behaviour is so so much worse when she is allowed it. Same for too much tv. She basically doesn’t know how to entertain herself so will start winding everyone up etc obviously she does do this anyway but she is 10x as bad with technology. Whenever I’m lax about it I see her behaviour change so much- I’m also not even talking a lot of tech I mean like an hour of iPad etc she is worse. Tech is a very quick way to cure her boredom and get a dopamine hit but in the longrun it has the opposite effect

There’s a difference between a consequence for behaviour and then a parent out of control and that’s what you have described here. You both lost control “having the last word” tells me you were at that point just having a row with your child. Warning consequence fine. Expecting him to not have a reaction. Unreasonable.

I appreciate how hard it is and I think your handling it brilliantly. I think you also have the patience of a saint if you have to put up with this via your DH having ADHD too. Make sure you're looking after yourself!

I think sport and activity - and a lot of it - at weekends, too. And activities planned ahead so he gets to anticipate them. E.g. you know from start of the week that you're all going to the cinema that Saturday evening.

I never understood this blanket tech helps them regulate thing. Not for my autistic ten year old. The overstimulation can turn him into a monster and wind up merchant. So we limit it, especially YouTube and Switch. Not so much just general TV programmes as that seems to be ok.

Placemarking - this is a really valuable thread

I've got two ND. One really benefits from regulation via switch building type games (Minecraft etc). The other regulates via real life building Lego. If either tries to do the other thing for long it's worse not better.

When I was a kid I regulated via watching tv and playing games on computer too. I'm early 40s and I suspect AuDHD.

My older likely ND relatives seemed to all be obsessed with knitting or similar. My grandad did woodwork to an extreme.

I suspect ND people have always had obsessive activities. These have just changed over time. It's about finding imes that help regulate not the opposite.

I think you were too harsh op. Far too harsh.

You’re absolutely doing the right thing. He has to learn not to engage in negative behaviours; ADHD isn’t an excuse to upset others. You’re actually being a good parent by not letting it become one.

(And before the inevitable accusation: I am ND myself. I don’t think that’s incompatible with being a considerate member of society.)

Half agree with this - we do home made pizza and movie night every Friday and ours loves knowing he’s got that to look forward to each week, and that we go swimming every weekend. However, if we are doing a ‘special’ activity then we can’t tell him until we are going as otherwise he obsesses about it until it’s time to go and is angry every day that it’s not yet time to do the fun activity…

So just adding that it depends on the kid and what you’re doing! But absolutely agree having some structure and routine and lots of physical activity really helps.

I think you are absolutely right to be consistent about behaviour that impacts others OP. Someone up thread mentioned redirecting early on which I think is the most likely strategy to head things off early on.

I think tech stuff actually exacerbates the problems ADHD kids have, and in fact a lot of kids - it's basically a dopamine dispensing device, like those gambling machines in bars. It further trains the brain to expect easy stimulation. So I would not hesitate to restrict it and maybe actually just keep it absolutely minimal all the time. In my experience getting rid of it, after about a week, produces significant improvements. It's hard in that it's not there as a parental relief but IMO worth it.

@ParrotParty
Can I ask what you have replaced the screen time with on a school day please?

Our ADHD DD(age9) wants to watch TV on iPad all the time. It does help her regulate/zone out after school (where she masks all day) but she can be awful after screen time (not always). So I would like to try reducing it and see if that's better or worse. The problem is at that time of day if she isn't doing a planned activity (like swimming lesson etc) she would want me to play with her constantly and that makes dinner or sorting out anything her siblings needs very difficult. She isn't great at playing by herself and hates being in a room by herself so I can't get her to play in her room or in the lounge unless I go with her.

I need to find something that's regulating or dopamine-giving to replace screen time with that doesn't need my constant input/presence and that can't get out of hand (e.g. she likes making a massive mess with paint or making potions etc but that's tricky if I am trying to make dinner or whatever else).

We have limited what she can do with her screen time (e.g.kids YouTube is school holidays only, 20 mins per day; iPad games are weekends only, 20 mins at a time etc) so it's mostly watching familiar TV shows on repeat, whilst also doing something with her hands like drawing or tearing some paper or mixing cornflour and water etc). But I would really like to try less time overall on screens.
Thanks for any ideas!

I think it's really normal for all kinds to struggle with entertaining themselves now. It's something you have to learn to do. Back in the day we all did it from a young age, but now many kids have never had to. So while it may be a bigger struggle for an ND child, in many ways it's a normal leaning curve for any kid suddenly thrown on their own resources.

One of the great things about kids with things like ADHD who are very motivated to action is there is potentiality to actually accomplish a lot. They aren't, by nature, lazy, though tech addiction can sometimes create that impression. But they need some kinds of activities that respond well to sometimes obsessive focus.

For some it's sports, and maybe think about something they could do at home, like boxing - it's possible to practice shadow boxing, or have punching bag, for home time use. I think another great option is a musical instrument which rewards obsession. I might start with something that will allow quick rewards, like the ukulele.

But before all that, what about things like Lego, or Tinker toys? Or would she be interested in making clay miniatures, or bracelets? Something that requires focus, but isn't too hard right at the beginning, and there is scaffolding. But luckily entertaining oneself gets a lot easier with practice.

“Nip that in the bud”. What do you suggest?

Loads of thoughtful and helpful replies, thank you.

This morning escalated as well unfortunately, I don’t think his latest medication is working all that well, and he then went on a spiral about how his friends aren’t good friends (it wasn’t even in context) so I have to admit I was quite harsh and pointed out that he’s rude to us, awful to his sister, if he claims his friends aren’t also a problem, perhaps it’s in fact him who is the problem.

I completely agree with a lot of PP about the tech and it not being a good regulation, I’ve never found that. YouTube has been banned in this house for years because the shorts used to turn DS evil, neither DC even ask for it now.

I appreciate that my DC hold a lot in in school as they are both fairly well behaved and so need time to compress, so I’ve always let them watch TV of their choice separately for 45 minutes to an hour straight after getting home. DS does a lot of sports so that’s all he has time for really, but again my DC are ruined, they get a TV each to choose something! I’m sure most siblings have to agree or take it in turns, maybe we’ve gone wrong with spoiling them.

The redirection tip is extremely good, I think in theory it should work but in practice it can be tricky to spot in time.

To the pp who asked about what calms him down, I don’t actually know. He is usually quite happy coming out of school unless something specific has gone wrong, and he is 95% brilliant after his sports clubs, so exercise is hugely helpful. We walk home from school and that helps I’m sure.

His trigger times for bad behaviour are mornings before school/weekend mornings, when there’s loads of transitions and getting ready involved, and then evenings if we are watching TV, anything that’s not completely of his choosing but even then sometimes he gets overexcited and hyperactive. I encourage him to work off physical energy but it never seems to work.