Too harsh on ND child?

[itscoldplay]

DS ADHD (and dyspraxia. Also likely ASD, but it’s his ADHD behind most of the challenging behaviours).

He’s 10, and just really hard work on the weekend especially when not medicated. Constant negativity when he doesn’t get his own way. Zero frustration tolerance. But what DH and I find most infuriating is the wind up behaviour, the back chat and rudeness.

Do you let some things like that go? The pestering siblings for example? Tonight DS, DD and I watching TV, cuddled up. He bothers DD, so I move to sit in between. He bothers her again, I send him out of the room for 5 minutes. He bothers her the third time, he is sent straight for his shower and bed. Cue major anger which for him means constant back chat, refusal to let anyone else have the last word, aggressive behaviours (I don’t think he would ever really hurt us but he will test the waters by gently pushing me or DH). “Shush”ing us constantly when we’re speaking, really disrespectful stuff. Eventually he is sobbing, saying he has a headache. No remorse in these scenarios typically (he is much better behaved at school and will always be remorseful if he does wrong, same with friends).

We try our best to keep our cool but it does end up in taking away tech for 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks because he doesn’t stop even when told. That’s what he was sobbing about tonight, he’s now lost his iPad for 2 weeks.

That’s all well
and good but you need to have a replacement to hand. A good one at that.

Have a look into PDA and "The Explosive Child"

It’s so hard to give immediate consequences because he doesn’t go to his room/leave the room without a fight. He is big, we cannot physically remove him (also that will lead nowhere good if we cannot do anything without physical force - eventually he is going to be huger than me and won’t budge)

I disagree with this and haven’t ever found any proper evidence to support this position. People say it all the time and yet there is no evidence that a) kids with adhd can use tech as an EFFECTIVE self regulation tool and b) there are positive effects from letting ND kids having often unlimited access to tech

I can totally understand your frustration and I can see how annoying that must be but I think you need to try and be more proactive in moments like this. Your son is communicating a need when he behaves like this and you need to try and address it before it becomes an issue. Nd kids hear 10s of thousands more negative things than NT kids, imagine how you could reduce that by stepping in early.
When he starts winding up/dopamine seeking you need to assess the situation - what is he telling me, how do I provide what he needs. Later you can communicate when you feel like this, this is how you can tell us you need it and over time he may learn to communicate better or he might not but at least you'll know what works.

Also I'm ND and a problem I've seen in parents is internalized ableism. The idea that we coped or dealt with situations so the child should be able to. I think it's guilt/shame/sadness over things we experiences and it's not easy to overcome but your son needs you to be his voice when it comes to your husband.

As for medication breaks, as an adult I've been recommended it and I just want to communicate how deeply hard it is for the person who isn't getting the medication. I find it so hard to function on days I'm not taking my meds and am really trying to get my doctor to consider moving me to one that I don't need a break from and that's an adult so please have patience and empathy for your son. I know you probably do try and I get that his behavior has an effect on you and your whole family so I hope it doesn't come across as thinking you don't have empathy but I'd just encourage you to have as much as you can because it will have such as impact on the adult he can become if he has that support instead of guilt/shame/fear of being himself.

Hated that book! The ADHD Dude and Allison Leigh Solomon are the approaches we try to follow.

I didn’t say unlimited. But I do think a long long ban is pointless. Short bursts seems to work better.

How is that working for you?

I totally understand where you’re coming from; it’s very hard not to react but I have found with my DC that no response is better, trying not to get into the cycle where your response is the dopamine hit and giving a consequence in the middle of a meltdown never works but you know that and I still forget that in the moment.
Whether this is right or wrong I’m coaching my other DC to not respond and ignore the wind ups (as best as I can) and try to remove one of them from situations like this; sometimes that’s taking my non ASD child out of the room

His behaviour is improving with a tech ban due to the lack of tech not because of the ‘punishment’. By all means limit tech but do it permanently not as a punishment, your essentially dangling it like a carrot and teaching him to pretend to behave only to get the tech back not to actually be well behaved and responsible.

Thank you, that’s all really kind.

I know exactly where you’re coming from. In hindsight I can always think this, but then in the moment his behaviour can be so horrendous. And I can’t have him growing up to be an aggressive, antagonistic prick! I can’t allow him to bully his sister. She was breathing her cheesy crisp breath all over him before to wind him up, I stopped her immediately and moved her. I don’t let her get away with anything. But then she stops, she doesn’t carry on. If I send her out of the room, she goes (in a huff, that’s fine).

Quite well actually because in school, to his friends and team mates, DS is overall polite, kind and thoughtful. He also comes home from school quite calm and regulated, having had his “fix” of stimulation and social interaction in school. He stands up for his sister at school if people are picking on her.

So at his core I feel he is a good person who chooses the right thing.

But at home is obviously another story. He can become dysregulated, dopamine seeking, and he also acts extremely spoiled and frustrated whenever things don’t go his way.

You’re totally right. I think next time there won’t be a second chance - you bother your sister, you leave the room, that’s it. He is ok at finding his own things to do eventually, reading or Lego.

So you're happy with the consequences. Happy not to medicate. Just unhappy because someone else is 'triggered'. OK then.

I think with ND children (I have two) it's sometimes better to try to manage the situation and pre-empt any bad behaviour. Sitting through a whole film can be hard for a child with ADHD. So you could do things like sit the siblings away from each other so he doesn't bother her. Or build in regular snack/movement breaks. Or give up on the idea of family movie nights. Have nights when you watch films with your DD and other times when you do it with your DS - you could watch a film over a few nights so he doesn't have to sit for a prolonged period, or choose a TV series to watch together so he doesn't have to sit through more than an episode. Alternatively if he doesn't enjoy films, just find a different family activity to do together, like going for a walk.

Avoid creating situations that are likely to lead to bad behaviour and arguments.

It's so hard and I can only give my perspective from being ND not parenting it so I totally get the punishment bit. I would say the biggest thing that has allowed me to address my own struggles has been identifying triggers and being able to link it to what I need. Now obviously things that i'lI struggle with might be different from your son but I think that perspective will help.

If you can see the patterns, know the next behavior and direct it away it won't work every time but it will allow you to try. For example if they annoy each other, make them sit on different seats from the beginning and give him something to keep him occupied like fidget toys so he is getting dopamine whilst watching the movie. Sitting still to watch a movie is really hard so anticipating that will help. I think punishment for bad behavior as a result of a choice he's making is totally fair but if he's in situations we know he'll struggle with that's not fair on him.

If he struggles with emotional meltdowns or having the last word, you can't have a conversation with reasoning in that moment, it will never work. You need to direct his emotions away by doing whatever works and then come back and discuss whatever it was later when he's back level. Remember that he likely has rejection sensitivity so he's probably more sensitive than the average person so how you phrase things is really important.

He's never going to be able to cope like a NT child will in majority of situations so setting him and you all to be in a better position to start with is going to make all your lives easier.

What? I have said he is medicated. It’s the weekend. All HCPs have advised us not to medicate on the weekends.

You're really shaming him for being neurodiverse OP. You should be doing the exact opposite - acknowledge, highlight, 'see' the sensible & mature boy in him, and let him thrive. It needs the patience of a saint, but you are basically blaming him & punishing him (far too harshly) for ... essentially being who he is. Power struggles with ADHD kids are just on a hiding to nothing. Cut the poor kid some slack - I guarantee you he has enough to deal with to get through a school day, and needs the grace, love and support of his family - to love him unconditionally, just for being the absolutely brilliant young chap I have every faith he is.You'll never win, you'll set him up to fail (eventually he could lash out due to frustration you're creating in him unfairly), and you'll blame him even more. It's great you posted - you realise the current state of affairs isn't working - but please, fully reconsider your current strategies and remember: your boy is brilliant and good enough exactly how he is! Good luck.

Thank you. He does have RSD and goes on the defence/attack. He is praised daily for everything he does well, told he is loved a million times a day. We went through a really lovely patch of behaviour before half term but the break from medication over the holidays was tricky and we’ve actually just had to up his dose as it wasn’t working anymore (maybe he has had a growth spurt, not sure). But no matter how much positivity he only hears the negative and to be blunt he is only happy when having his own way. His sister is on the spectrum but she is more flexible than he is!

Thank you, but how am I setting him up to fail? How am I punishing him for being ND? He cannot behave badly towards others, ND or no ND. Rudeness is not going to be tolerated. Let him thrive how? He does loads of sports (despite the dyspraxia) and he is thriving then. He loves to be around people and on the move. He sees friends at least 50% of all weekends. We play board games, read together, watch his choice of TV together. Go on days out. He gets the absolute world!

@Nn9011 mentioned triggers. The sensory overload of people talking while TV is on is something everyone struggles with in our ND household. It's like nails on chalkboard when your brain can't unscramble it. I wonder if that might be triggering for him too, and why his shushing gets so aggressive so quickly.

@Maladie the shushing wasn’t about the TV, it was in direct response to being told off. This was actually out of the living room so no other noise. The shushing is back chat. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

It would be good to ignore it. We try and walk away, he follows. Gets in your face.

I read this about ADHD which I thought was very interesting:

‘It has been suggested that for every fifteen negative comments that a child with ADHD receives, there is only one positive comment, and that, by age twelve, children with ADHD receive 20,000 more negative messages from parents, teachers, and other adults than their non-ADHD peers. Knowing this, it is not difficult to understand why ADHDers might be more sensitive to or triggered by feelings of rejection…

The key lesson here, as for all [ADHD] traits and experiences, is to be kind. If you can both a) be careful with the words you use, and b) be patient if someone perceives those words as rejection, then you can make a really huge difference.’

From Unmasked: The Ultimate Guide to ADHD, Autism and Neurodivergence by Ellie Middleton

@schoolmum11 yes I’ve read that and it’s 100% true. We’ve been in the ADHD game a while, I’ve read all the literature!

This is great advice. Thank you from mom to ASD and most likely ADHD 9.5 year old exactly like this. I'm going to do this all week.