For telling my friend she was ridiculous to bring a 7 year old for a spa day!

[Senuousnotsensuous]

My friend Emily has a 7 year old daughter Milly who she brings every time we meet up either when it’s just the two of us or with a group of our other friends.

Emily insists Milly wants to come but it’s frustrating as we can never have a conversation without her giving her opinion or Milly takes over and Emily sits smiling proudly, she often comments on her daughter’s maturity and how she loves joining us.

We do occasionally get time when Milly is at school but any weekend meet ups are the same, Milly could stay with her dad at home but apparently gets very upset when she’s not invited so Emily gives in and lets her come. We have had a few occasions where we have met up in restaurants for a meal in the evenings and Milly has often made an appearance, the whole evening ends up revolving round her.

My other friends said they were fed up with this as well, we stopped inviting Emily as often but she noticed and was hurt.
I managed to get her to meet me one to one and asked if she was being persuaded by her husband to bring Milly and said I was concerned that she never seemed to get time to herself, she insisted that wasn’t the case and said she thought we loved seeing Milly.
I explained that no one else brought their kids along and wanted adult time and as much as we liked Milly it’s frustrating to get childcare for other kids for a childfree evening then Milly being allowed to come.
Its not fair on the other kids and changes the dynamic and means Emily has to leave early. We are sick of censoring the conversation and being unable to talk freely.
Emily agreed to stop bringing Milly along unless other kids were going to be present.

A few weeks ago we booked a spa day for today for 3 of us and Emily.
The package included a 25 minute massage treatment each and use of the facilities for 3 hours and afternoon tea with Prosecco.
I didn’t think not to ask Emily not to bring Milly as surely it’s common sense?!

Well the spa was booked for 10am and Emily brought Milly. We asked her how she possibly thought this would work and she said Milly wanted to use the pool and we could watch her when Emily had her massage.
Emily was told by staff she couldn’t being Milly into the spa and got very upset and complained that she’d paid for the day, her husband refused to pick her up saying he’d agreed to work overtime now, Milly started crying hysterically.

I had no sympathy and told Emily one of the reasons we booked a spa day was in the hope of actually spending time with her alone and we never considered she’d bring Milly. My other friends were equally as unsympathetic and said she had brought this on herself and it was her own fault Milly was upset and if lost the money.

Emily had to leave with Milly and looked absolutely devastated, she didn’t apologise though she just kept saying how ridiculous it was that the spa wouldn’t let Milly in or make any exceptions.

After she left we all agreed it was time to stop inviting Emily anywhere as she obviously wasn’t going to stop bringing Milly, we were throughly pissed off about the whole thing.

One friend has just sent me a message saying Emily has been crying down the phone for hours on her and thinks we were maybe a bit harsh and that Emily said she finds it hard to leave Milly because she gets so upset when she can’t come along. She thinks we should apologise for getting so frustrated with her today.

I think the whole situation is fucking bizarre and if Emily was a struggling single parent I could maybe understand it, I have had enough though and I’m not apologising, I have tried to chat about it but she’s not willing to listen.

AIBU for not being more understanding? It’s not just me, my other friends feel the same, even the friend who thinks we should apologise said she thinks it’s best we no longer invite Emily.
I don’t think Emily is ever going to take in what we are saying and she will keep bringing Milly because she can’t say no to her.

People never use to quote the entire OP, but it seems to happen a LOT now. It is annoying, especially in a first reply (this PP not guilty of that, at least).

In that case I'd expect her to ask if her kid could play with the other mums' kids. If she wasn't ready to split, or to admit to it (there's often misplaced shame in being an abuse victim) she could just say he was at work. I'd absolutely help her, as would all if my adult friends (I believe) but not by accepting the loss of ALL of our adult socialising.

👏👏👏

Try arranging a trip to a strip club or something!!! She may get the hint then!!!!

I think she believes she’s part of our group.

Wouldnt be surprised if this is true. Once had a barely 5 year old in my class who’d regularly miss a day of school ( fee paying, not in UK so no one as bothered) If I asked her if she’d been poorly the previous day her reply was always no I went out for coffee with my mummy and her friends. Then we bought lipsticks/ mascara/ perfume.
I’m sure she thought she was one of the adults.

I just came back to this thread to read some replies and just wanted to answer some questions.

I really don’t think there is an issue with Emily’s husband at all, I’ve known him a long time and he’s a nice man who works hard and cares about his family. I’ve spent time with them all as a family and Milly seems to adore him.
Emily won’t leave Milly with anyone because Milly goes everywhere with her, there was talk of her staying with grandparents for Emily and her husband’s wedding anniversary so they could go out for the evening. Milly had tantrums for days beforehand so she ended up going out with her parents.
I think Milly has got so used to going everywhere with her mum that her dad can’t cope with the showdown when she’s told no.

Emily and Milly aren’t real names, I didn’t realise till afterwards how similar they were, it was a bit of a freudian slip 😂. They were just names vaguely similar to the real names so I used them so I’d remember them. It’s all very outing anyway but I know Emily doesn’t visit mumsnet, funnily enough she thinks it’s very bitchy and said the only time she’s ever posted she was ripped to pieces, I’d love to know what she posted but she claims she can’t remember.

Apparently Emily had been to a spa before where they allowed children in the pool, that’s why she believed Milly would be allowed in, I was dubious about this and assumed it was an excuse. It turns out that is the case and the trip advisor reviews confirm it, it’s somewhere I’ll be avoiding but the reviews were entertaining!

The other children that come along when we all meet with kids are between 5 and 9 so a similar age, Milly has never really joined in with them, they try to get her to play and we try to encourage her but she joins them for a few minutes then comes back.

It’s disappointing to read how many people have friends who behave similar with their kids and worrying that it continues as they get older. I was hoping we could shelve the friendship for a few years till Milly becomes more independent but reading some of these comments it’s likely they will continue being enmeshed.

Thanks for all who mentioned and linked the hen night with the toddler thread, it’s given me a good laugh after a long day but I’ve just lost a decent amount of time reading it!

This was really interesting to read and kind of see the other side.

Milly also does the “they are my friends too” comments but I think that’s because Emily has led her to believe that’s the case and encourages it.

That’s very insightful that it’s actually social immaturity and I’d be tempted to show this to Emily and the whole thread but I don’t think it’d go down very well! I might just say I overheard it in a conversation and see if I can get her to understand that what she sees is maturity is people making allowances and try to get across how important it is that Milly has friends her own age.
I can’t see this happening for a while because I’m too fed up with the situation to handle it sensitively at the moment. At least you had awareness that things weren’t ideal and tried to change the situation and encourage your daughter to be independent, you sound like a great understanding mum x

This is so bizarre I can’t help wondering if she doesn’t want to leave her with her father. I truly don’t want to cast inappropriate aspersions but…wtaf? Doesn’t she want a break from High Princess Milly herself? Beyond odd. Who could put up with that? And she’s not helping the child. She’s creating a needy entitled primadonna who noone will like

She’s already done that with the spa day.

Oh, I bet her friends just LOVED that! No chance of having any actual conversation then!

I've just read the linked threads (just the OP's posts) and my jaw was on the floor by the end. It's truly incredible how one utterly selfish, entitled brat can cause so much stress and bad feeling. (The brat being the mum, not the child.)

It just goes to show how there are some people who do not listen and never will listen, no matter how clearly you say it. Your "no" means nothing. From Spagate, it seems that Emily is the same. You can do nothing with these people but stay away from them. I've wriggled free of more than my fair share of self-centred, obtuse PITAs, and the sheer peace when they're no longer around is like heaven on earth.

Oh please don’t dismiss the spa on the grounds of accepting children. You’d be missing out on places like Claridges or four seasons 😀 some of them allow kids only during the half term. Most of them have an hour slot in the morning and afternoon when the kids can use the pools. So just avoid these hours. They’re usually not allowed in the area where the jacuzzis are. When we’re with the kids we usually dine in the low key restaurants within the spa area.

I know it seems hard, but you have to stop inviting Emily- she clearly can't say no to a daughter who is in love with being the centre of attention- Emily will not say no to Milly , even when children are not allowed in the venue- why does Emily feel everyone needs to make an exception for Milly?
With venues it is an insurance thing and Emily can get as hysterical as she likes, venues will not make an exception, because the request is unreasonable- equally bringing Milly along to events which are an adult friend meet up, with no other children is equally unreasonable- so as Emily is unlikely to say no to Milly you have to accept Milly or exclude Emily and Milly.

YANBU
It's sad that it's hard for your friend, but this feels like codependency/ anxious detachment disorder and colluding with that isn't helping either of them.

I had a friend like this. She couldn't bear for her DD to be upset, couldn't hold the emotion and soothe her, had to placate her with yesses and treats everytime. It was like part of her was fuelled by this dynamic of being at the whim of her child's will.

You can guess how well this child now behaves and functions. Sadly by not being able to have boundaries, and not being able to soothe her without anxiously saying yes to everything shes had a terrible legacy.

The kindness here is being honest and boundaried as you have been and signposting to therapy.

Can someone link the thread with the hen do and the toddler?

I already did. In this thread.

You and your friends are absolutely right to put your foot down about this issue, Milly can only come if and when your children also are invited. I'm afraid Emily is one of those mums who claims "her baby is her best friend". For the social development of said baby that is dramatic. That child doesn't need her mother for a best-friend, she needs a real mother!

Children in a spa! What fresh hell is that!!

The English in particular have a very un-childfriendly outlook on life. But I was replying to someone else's post that things are different on the continent re inclusion of children e.g. they will routinely be included in a family night out at a restaurant etc. Not that I would want someone's 7 year old at a spa date, thanks, and anyway, I'm not sure how OP's friend thought she was getting a child into the spa for free.

I found it, thank you for linking it. That woman was batshit crazy…what a story 😂

In short she’s a shit parent and a shit friend.

This. She thinks she's being an amazing mum by taking her daughter everywhere but in reality is causing so much damage by trying to turn her into her "best friend" rather than just be her parent.

Yup! Her daughter in turn will struggle socially by thinking she is “more mature” and above her peers.

Your friend is doing her daughter a great disservice. As well as yourselves, of course. Teaching her she is mature enough to be the exception to “adult only” rules and that she is “one of the ladies” can be a slippery slope into her feeling she should also not entertain boys her own age. She’s too mature, she should have a grown adult man like her grown adult friends.

I don’t say this lightly or flippantly, I say because I knew girls like this growing up.

I have to say, as someone who switched gym memberships from one that only allowed children in the pool at certain times to one that never allowed children - I'd never go to a spa that just limited children to certain hours.

There are always children whose parents think they are the divine exception (see this thread...) and therefore, in my experience at said gym, there were always children present during the adult-only hours, and often in the places where they were not allowed at all (e.g. jacuzzi). Parents were never anywhere to be seen.

The only way around such people is to pick a place with an absolute rule. They can't be in the spa if they can't get through the door.

Emily is a CF who won't respect other people's boundaries and is teaching her daughter to do the same. No surprise she instantly plays the victim when challenged. You are well rid of both of them. I've had a couple of 'friends' insist on bringing their child/ren everywhere with them, and it quickly resulted in me withdrawing from the friendship. Incidentally in every case the children have grown up with mental health issues, including bullying/being bullied. Emily is doing Millie no favours at all.

My sister is like Emily. He daughter is now a teenager (13 so only just) and she is so spoiled. Her mum just can’t say no to her. Her dad isn’t in the picture, but her step dad has been in her life since she was around 3/4. I’ve been there when he’s tried to tell her off for something (deservedly) and my sister will play it down, make an excuse, tell her not to worry etc. I’ve seen her post pictures of her “out with the girls” (a really good friendship group she’s had since she was a kid) and the daughter is there 99 times out of 100. I’m surprised her friends have put up with it for so long to be honest.

I asked my sister if she fancied going with me to see the new Bridget Jones movie. She said yes so I thought great. Was trying to arrange a date then she asked if her daughter could come along. I pointed out it was a 15 certificate. She said she’d be fine as she looks 15. She doesn’t. So I said let’s not because we’d be pretty annoyed if we bought the tickets then couldn’t go in because they refused her entry. And I could guarantee she wouldn’t have paid me back for my ticket or the fuel (as I would have driven).

You are not unreasonable at all. Parents have to ge able to say no to their kids or they are going to grow up into very dysfunctional adults.