AIBU to feel outraged that Kyle Clifford is able to refuse to attend court today?

[HappySonHappyMum]

I am absolutely outraged that Kyle Clifford can choose not to attend court to hear his sentence and be forced to listen to the impact statements being read out by John and Amy Hunt. I'm literally sitting here crying with rage and sadness right now listening to their words. He should be dragged there and forced to listen, he lost all rights when he committed rape and then murdered three women in cold blood. Why does he even have a choice?

Which is a more practical choice than bullshitting about dragging them, when Starmer in particular will know full well what a completely unworkable idea that is.

Which as he's receiving a "whole life" sentence achieves nothing, it's not a threat. Which shows it's very much political point scoring theatre. Makes you sound "tough on crime and criminals" which the public like but changes nothing in practical terms.

The issue with someone facing life imprisonment (at a minimum) is that adding time is almost entirely meaningless.

Say your punishment part is 20 years but the judge bumps it up to 22. Is that really going to bother you? Bear in mind that the chances of parole after murder can be very slim, which further lessens the impact of any additional time.

Privileges, yes. Remove those for a set period and let their existence be even more intolerable.

I kind of feel he would have known the impact on the victims.

You can revoke privileges.

But it's true, there presumably does come a point when there's nothing left to revoke. It's still a more workable option than pretending we can have a system that drags every unwilling person to court though.

There is a law in the pipeline to deal with this. Proposed by Sunak and Starmer has said he will continue with it.

I’m not sure. I was reading the other day how some of the Manson family murderers smirked and laughed throughout their trial. I wouldn’t like to give people like Clifford that power to antagonise the families.

I don't believe he should be given any option as to whether he can refuse to go anywhere.

He should be taken into court by force if necessary. If he starts screaming, he should be suitablyrestrained

Seems like a simple solution to me.

I also like the idea of a sound proof
box the could make them sit in. I did read about a judge in the USA ordering them to tape someone’s mouth shut when they kept shouting but I think that’s going down the wrong path.

Or as others have said, make them listen to it in another room and take their choice away entirely.

The only way it could work is if Clifford or anyone else was gagged and bound from the cells and made to listen to the sentence and victim statements.

They would have to bound and gagged first to stop them doing or saying whatever they like to the court, it could be very distressing for anyone hearing this.

I'm happy with that, subject to the victims and or family also saying they are happy too.

Did you mean your post to come across that I am the loon here @TheMorels ?

Definitely the capacity for loon like behaviour over this way.👋

For the purposes of debate on this subject, helpful for me to clarify with you. 🙏

I understand you not wanting us all pay for his lifelong care however, this is the one time where I feel like there has been some sort of justice. He didn't manage to weasel out of his disgrace and survived. Even worse (for him), he's actually paralysed and now he has a whole life sentence! It sounds like he's going to spend many years suffering which is just grand. I really wish that Sara Sharif's dad had got a whole life sentence and was paralysed also.
I often think that the police need to be tougher on bringing them into court but really, he's such scum, does he care how others feel?
He has seem scared of John the entire time and doesn't seem to want to face him. Pathetic animal.

I don’t care if they hear it or not. It’s not going to make a difference to their thinking if they choose not to attend, and if they are facing life in prison that’s punishment enough, no chance of thinking again about their choices. Plus family words should not be punishment that they are forced to listen to.

From the BBC

’The judge observed that Belmarsh Prison had asked him whether Clifford should be brought into the video room there to watch on a video link.
But, he says, he declined “on the basis that the idea of a man in a wheelchair being put in restraints and potentially disrupting these proceedings is simply not appropriate or suitable”.‘

Wouldn’t the video room be outside though?

@twilightermummy these situations are difficult because the desire for justice doesn't change things. I am seething at this man and what he represents, but what is to be done with them.

He's beyond anything of value imo. His behaviour is high end personality disordered. This can't be rehabilitated or reasoned with or capable of remorse. It would all be a lie and act at every point going forth.

The only valuable response I see is death. I don't agree with the death penalty as it would be abused and I fear innocent people killed. I feel it would be best this guy died. But we can't have that without opening flood gates.

"Our prison officers are brave and public spirited people. I’m sure many would volunteer."
TBH I think they're all underpaid, worn out, stressed and sick of being attacked doing their job. I doubt any would volunteer to do that.

I can’t speak for Belmarsh specifically, but prisons usually have video link rooms inside them. They’re used for VIPERS (video identity parades) as well as appearances at court for procedural hearings (so that the prisoner doesn’t have to travel to court and take staff resources with them).

Not sure why they couldn’t put him in the prison video room. I think it’s more about restraining a wheelchair-bound guy.

What would the penalty be for him refusing? He's got a whole life order and he knew that was coming, so he has no incentive to cooperate. (As a result he also has no incentive to cooperate with prison staff either, so I wish them all the best in dealing with him.)

If he had come in, he would have probably screamed obscenities or lashed out in some other way. So he would have had to be bound, gagged, and in a straitjacket, and that would have been its own distraction.

Look at you saying that the victims family should pay in case the evil scum can’t be restrained. I find your idea to be abhorrent.

In the US this is regarded as contempt of court and the accused will be carried in, if necessary, and the sentence increased to take account of it.

Older brother is in prison serving a life sentence for murder as well. A real charming family.

I watched an excellent podcast yesterday coincidentally. A long serving, now retired prison officer, once working at Strangeways.

When he described how it often is now in many prisons; very poorly paid for the responsibility, very young inexperienced staff, many young females in male prisons. It is horrifying.

A 2014 inspection of one prison; Strange ways I recall, was excellent and reflected a good level of control, satisfaction and management of issues.
The 2024 inspection reflected an absolute pit of severely high risk situations for staff, prisoners. Ineffectual management and staff out their depth.

I didn't watch long enough to understand why this has come about.

I don't care for how it is for the Clifford's,but it's a shit situation if you're a low level criminal in that zoo like situation, possibly bunked up with the Clifford's ( paralysed thank fook).

Another thread all that I apologise 😆.

Crying with rage is a bit much.

Better that he not attend than he screamed and shouted through the evidence and the victim statements, like Rudakubana forcing proceedings to be halted and restarted over and over again. How painful for the family.

I find both your poor comprehension and your lack of fucks given for any of the people you expect to facilitate your ideas much more abhorrent, I can assure you. Imagine typing that shit after what happened to Lorraine Barwell!

Yeah it didn’t make sense to me. If he’s not even leaving the prison then how can it disrupt anything.

Look at you targeting the murder victims family for cash. It’s an utter shocking disgrace. You should be ashamed of yourself but your post proves otherwise. Lack of empathy and understanding. Look at your language and words - what a disgrace.