AIBU to feel outraged that Kyle Clifford is able to refuse to attend court today?

[HappySonHappyMum]

I am absolutely outraged that Kyle Clifford can choose not to attend court to hear his sentence and be forced to listen to the impact statements being read out by John and Amy Hunt. I'm literally sitting here crying with rage and sadness right now listening to their words. He should be dragged there and forced to listen, he lost all rights when he committed rape and then murdered three women in cold blood. Why does he even have a choice?

BeHere

In this case, he’s physically unable to attack anyone.

The police regularly restrain dangerous criminals without being attacked (some exceptions, obviously, but not that common) handcuffs prevent most violence. I’d suggest a taser could be usefully employed if the convicted violent criminal begins to show aggression.
Enhanced training and payments for those officers willing to undertake such duty would also go a long way to ensuring their safety and recognise the risk they are willing to take.
Our prison officers are brave and public spirited people. I’m sure many would volunteer.

I hate this naive belief that he would be filled with remorse or moved in anyway by the victim impact statements. He's not made like normal people so it's pointless projecting normal human responses onto him.

The family deserve the opportunity to have their statements heard in a respectful and dignified environment.

He is nothing and we should not expend ANY emotional energy on him.

I don't think he should be forced to to attend but I do think there must be a way to punish offenders who choose not to. An extra 10 years on a sentence, or for those with a life sentence removal of privileges or something. Someone with more knowledge than me could surely come up with something better.

I'll choose to remember the incredible dignity and message that the Hunt family gave today though, not him.

This particular evil scum is. They mostly aren't, and a lot of them will be a danger to those around them.

And yes, staff often can't manage dangerous criminals. You may have missed the link I posted upthread of the case of Lorraine Barwell, who was kicked to death when transporting a dangerous prisoner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65724123

Pretty fucking horrid that was. The resulting fine is why I doubt the companies that usually do this kind of work would be up for it in the long run.

I should declare an interest in that I have a loved one who does this job, and I'm not too keen on them being further endangered because of people's vague, uninformed ideas.

That's exactly what was in my mind when I wrote that. I watched the documentary again because I try spot signs from all the footage that he was a psychopath. And I still can't easily spot them.

Women writing to him actually blame his murdered wife for being a ball breaker 🤦. Because she's confident and dominates the marriage ( seemingly), she comes across as slightly unlikeable I think. So that justifies her murder in the minds of all these fans.

Very scary stuff all this.

FOjN

The family deserve the opportunity to have their statements heard in a respectful and dignified environment

The family deserve to be able to look him in the eye if that’s their wish, whatever it takes.

Yes, in this particular case. You presumably understand that most aren't in wheelchairs, and you're evidently talking more widely.

The rest of this is basically fantasy. Do you know anything about working in prisons, know anyone who does it? Handcuffs have to be put on before they act as a restraint. Ever used a taser? You sound very sure it'd be dead easy just to aim one at someone, job done. If they're moving around, they'd have to be restrained, and that introduces a risk to the restrainers too.

And do you think the likes of Serco or G4S would be prepared to keep delivering this kind of work after the first few fines? I'll link again to poor Lorraine Barwell and the resulting fine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65724123

It would be ridiculous to force him into court.

What if he sat there throughout the victim statements, laughing at them and shouting at them to fuck off?

On the one hand, I think that convicts should absolutely have to attend their sentencing. Or if failing that, have to sit in their cell listening to an audio of what’s going on in court.

On the other hand, making him come to court and his subsequent behaviour could be quite distressing for victims/victims families. Baring in mind he is a monster and very likely either doesn’t care what he’s done or gets some pleasure in the pain he has caused.

Anyone who refuses to go into the dock for sentencing and victim impact statements OR disrupts the proceedings on that day, should get either an additional 10% on their sentence or forfeit the right to any privileges during their prison sentence. Clifford is an absolute lowlife pos anyway and let’s hope that the other prisoners make his life absolute hell. They usually take a dim view of scum who murder women and children. Hopefully they’ll make his life unbearable so he tops himself and saves the taxpayer a lot of money.

BeHere

Giving contracts to Serco and G4 is a whole other thread? Whose stupid idea was that? Should be government employees.

Yes, I know someone who works in a prison in Preston. They don’t work alone with violent prisoners.

I get why he's not forced to attend but I do think he should be made to listen to the victim impact statements. They address him directly and I think it's important (for the victims) to know he has heard what they want to say to him.

Personally, I find some sad satisfaction in knowing he will spend his (hopefully very long life) paralysed from the chest down and hopefully in prison. I hope he has many, many miserable days ahead of him, staring at a cell wall.

I'm not proud of feeling that way and realise it's some misplaced need for vengeance but he is an evil little coward. A more worthless 'human', it is hard to imagine.

Yes, this. I get that the family wanted him to hear it, but he's likely a psychopath. His aim was to inflict as much damage on this family as possible. I fail to see how confirming that he succeeded is going to help.

You are being very unreasonable to be sat "crying with rage" over it.

It's not a whole other thread, as they do the prisoner transporting now. I don't know whose idea it was initially for them to be private rather than public sector, but we already don't have enough prison officers to do even the current job, let alone an expanded version. It is not a popular role.

Not a great surprise when you look at the assault rates. 114 per 1000 prisoners last year. Food for thought.

https://data.justice.gov.uk/prisons/safety-and-order/assaults-rate-staff

Does the person you know do any work restraining violent prisoners, or using Tasers on them in confined spaces when they don't want to do something?

Allowing him to refuse to be present is probably the least worst option here, as awful as that is ☹️

No, too far. This thread has degenerated unfortunately, treating people like that is wrong

He should definitely have been there, and the law should allow the judge to use it as an aggravating factor when determining the sentence.

I think we’re a tad more civilised than some of the suggestions on here.

That’s the problem though, human rights apply universally regardless of how un-humanely you’ve behaved. It’s what separates us from them.

I don’t think someone with nothing to lose and seemingly no empathy should be there, it’s highly likely to cause more distress to the families. I do like the idea of putting them in a separate room and forcing them to listen though. I doubt he’ll care, someone capable of committing those crimes isn’t suddenly likely to see the light. He knows exactly the suffering he caused, that was the point.

BeHere
Does the person you know do any work restraining violent prisoners, or using Tasers on them in confined spaces when they don't want to do something?

I dont know, tbh. They don’t go into detail. As a prison officer, I can only assume they use physical restraint. No idea about tasers.

I was suggesting that they could be introduced. Not that they are currently used when transporting prisons because I don’t know.

Distress to the families and injury to the people that some posters think should be carrying this out.

Oh my days. They walk among us.

There are some out and out loons on this thread. Worrying.

A pp mentioned it, adding a further fixed time tariff for refusal to attend court for this should happen. And soon.

Adding to this. What if he starts screaming and shouting that they deserved it and he's not sorry.
I think that would also be very distressing.
He is a pathetic coward to not face the remaining family.scum

whole life order!