AIBU to feel outraged that Kyle Clifford is able to refuse to attend court today?

[HappySonHappyMum]

I am absolutely outraged that Kyle Clifford can choose not to attend court to hear his sentence and be forced to listen to the impact statements being read out by John and Amy Hunt. I'm literally sitting here crying with rage and sadness right now listening to their words. He should be dragged there and forced to listen, he lost all rights when he committed rape and then murdered three women in cold blood. Why does he even have a choice?

Honestly?! Have you read those victim statements? Can you not feel the pain that oozes out of every word? John Hunt wanted to stare Clifford in the eyes and deliver that message. He's had three quarters of his family wiped out and the thought of that happening to my family - well I don't know if I'd be able to say what he did, or behave with the dignity he has. Crying with sadness and rage is completely reasonable I'd say.

I don't. You sound a bit OTT/unhinged.

Yeah, this is not a moral high ground situation for you.

You think people like my loved one should be collateral for your ignorance, you've completely failed to show any consideration at all for the people you expect to endanger themselves, and you're making things up to boot. Beneath contempt.

Yes, but unless the law changes there is nothing you or anyone can do.

I have to clarify this - in no way am I going to actively promote people having their eyeballs opened with matchsticks! This would traumatise me too much to watch tbh.

In order for women to process the anger, which is probably fear, some of us are envisaging scenarios where this guy is suffering in a way we feel proportionate to what he has inflicted.

It is processing. It is a method of processing when I describe his eyeballs forced open, gagged and wheeled off in flames ideally 🤷‍♀️. So now I have psychologically processed that ....I will clarify my actual feelings;

There is no point spending time and resources on forcing people who are personality disordered to sit in Court. Instead, I'd prefer that the powers that be focus resources on the bigger issues; education for women, for boys, in school ( education regards sociopathy and psychopathy and behaviour that is not ok).

I want to see better support for women in the criminal justice system; particularly victims of coercive control.

I want to see a better system of incarceration for those who actually might be rehabilitated or are in there due to circumstances rather than being the Personality Disordered folk beyond change.

So to clarify - I am not going to genuinely want to spend time campaigning for forced eyeball opening in Court for cuntchop Clifford.

Excellent post.

We're haemorrhaging prison staff, for a reason. It is an unattractive, inherently dangerous job. We could do better for them than we do, but it's still inflexible, has a high risk of injury and involves working with people most of us want to stay away from.

I understand why people are keen on the idea of dragging reluctant arseholes into courts on principle, but it does not survive even cursory contact with reality. Very easy for people to sit on their sofa making airy assumptions on MN, that they'll never have to test out for themselves.

You have targeted the murdered victims family for cash. Nothing you write can go after that. Such a disgrace. Truly a new low to see that someone thinks that the murdered victims family should pay in case things go wrong.

I think in these cases the criminal is generally a psychopath etc and shows no remorse. If they were of sane mind they wouldn’t have carried out the act in the first place. Often the criminal attends and disrupts the court case causing more upset for the family. I agree he should have been made to
listen from prison if not attending but in this day and age force is not allowed unfortunate considering his horrendous behaviour.

Just so we can be clear on how far in the wrong you are here, what exactly do you think has 'targeted the murderer victims family for cash' means in this case? I do hope you weren't dense enough to interpret the question about who pays as that, since actually there are lots of potential options. For example, those of you who want to co-opt the likes of my relative and people doing Lorraine Barwell's job into more dangerous situations could undertake to pay any compo yourselves. Or you could do the job instead, whilst first signing an indemnity so that you can't claim anything if it goes wrong.

You won't, of course. Because that would take some moral backbone.

Hard cases make bad law and this mob-level baying for people to be dragged into court kicking and screaming or forcibly restrained and brutalised has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with retribution. They are not the same thing and finding the idea abhorrent has nothing to do with being soft or having a bleeding heart.

It doesn't matter if the perpetrator is there, the purpose of impact statements isn't even for him, they are for the judge to use in their sentencing deliberation.

Do you honestly think it would be any less traumatic for the family to witness a bound, tasered person at the dock, screaming around their gag and fighting against the restraints with a cadre of prison staff around them? And what about the risk to the prison staff in getting the prisoner into that position? Not to mention the long term impacts of such actions on tensions and violence within prisons, usually of the sort that triggers off riots.

State-sanctioned violence is the thin end of a barbaric wedge. If you dehumanise one classification of people and legitimise violence against them, then you open the door to expansion of that policy. As a PP said, human rights are what separates is from them.

I've never once cried with rage and sadness at a news item. It's not a normal reaction to events that do not directly involve you.

This. I WISH he could be made to sit and listen but he would just potentially cause disruption and more upset for the family if he really wanted to.

He is a vile excuse for a human being and he belongs locked away in prison. He will never behave reasonably or show remorse or contrition for what he put that poor family and their loved ones through. But no amount of forcing will change what he is. All we can do it look at how we can prevent more boys from growing up to be like him in future.

I hope he rots in jail.

I wouldn't force them to come to court as I wouldn't want to put staff at risk, I'd add additional time to their sentence with no chance of parole. In the case of a whole life tariff I would revoke all privileges and if they behaved they could get them back gradually over a period of years.

I've never cried with rage but surely most people have cried with sadness at the news?

The judge had to weigh up what the probative value of Clifford being forced into court would be, set against the potential further harm to those involved in proceedings.

There is no permitted use of force within any of our systems that allows for physical restraint of anyone just to get them to listen to proceedings

Any such use of force would then be subject of legal action by or on behalf of Clifford that would mean further emotional pain and harm to those involved

Lastly, unless you are directly involved in that, or other similar cases, it really isn't for anyone to be 'outraged' or suggest what may or may not be done

My thoughts are only for Mr Hunt and his family, those involved in the investigation and to hope they can recover from what they have seen and heard in due course.

Social media outrage is unwarranted, unnecessary and uninformed.

No, he shouldn't be dragged out as it would be horrible for the court and family and would make us look barbaric as a country

I am delighted though that the reason he's in a wheelchair is because he shot himself in the neck with the crossbow after murdering the victims

He's going to spend more than 50 years in a wheelchair in prison if he lives his full and expected life

There is nowhere worse to be than a prison confined to a wheelchair

His life is going to be shit every moment of every day for 50 years

He deserves every second

I’d rather we protect custody staff, maybe all those who don’t value the safety of custody staff could consider a career change.

You need to get better at reading before moralising like this.

I note with interest that you don't say anything about your own willingness to put anything on the line for your justicewanking nonsense. You just think other people ought to bear the brunt of it, like Lorraine Barwell. Vile.

As I said, utterly beneath contempt. You could not possibly think any less of me than I do of you.

Great idea - and a 24/7 recording too.
He is evil personified.

Excellent idea! This thread has been noticeably devoid of anyone volunteering to get on the sharp end of the job themselves.

It's another abhorrent crime against women and girls, I'm fed up with reading about them. I'm fed up of hearing about men who harm women and children. It never stops and my reaction is probably due the frustration that I feel because it never seems to stop. I find it really upsetting - I can't help that.

If a criminal shouts out etc in court they are sent out anyway. I think a live stream where he had to listen but couldn't speak should have been set up though.

@MugsyBalonz do you not feel that most reactive responses are simply processing something here on an anonymous forum.

How many would actively pursue a situation wherein we are watching someone burnt in their wheelchair, gagged etc. I don't actually care for this person Clifford. More that I wouldn't be too moved if he was hurt this way. To actively want this and witness it would be incredibly traumatising to me and most. This, it is not something I wish to see as reality. I understand if the family do. Of course. And unless you have lost family in that way, I feel I have no place to protest such sentiments.

I believe most people here are processing a few things. One being fear that these guys exist and we feel powerless. That is what is happening here.

I think the poster you’re quoting is making the point that it’s not acceptable to put officers at risk in this situation and the family are not the only ones who matter.

She isn’t actually advocating a system whereby families can choose whether someone puts themselves in harm’s way on the proviso they pick up the tab fgs.