AIBU to feel outraged that Kyle Clifford is able to refuse to attend court today?

[HappySonHappyMum]

I am absolutely outraged that Kyle Clifford can choose not to attend court to hear his sentence and be forced to listen to the impact statements being read out by John and Amy Hunt. I'm literally sitting here crying with rage and sadness right now listening to their words. He should be dragged there and forced to listen, he lost all rights when he committed rape and then murdered three women in cold blood. Why does he even have a choice?

It’s shocking because he said something like your final sentence in a note to his family. He literally said he chose not to do that.

I think to sick individuals like him, it was worth it. His actions reek of “if I can’t have you, no one can”.

I mean I would not call the police on my sibling merely for having a crossbow and taking it out with him.

If I genuinely thought he was going to harm somebody I would but not solely for having one. And I don’t think I am unusual in that.

I mean, you would be unusual in that. Crossbows are covered by a number of English laws and are subject to statutory controls. If a person is found with a crossbow in a public place, they could be prosecuted for possessing an offensive weapon in a public area as it is illegal.

His sister even acknowledges that in messages to him.

Considering the only purpose of crossbows are to shoot, what legitimate purpose would your sibling have taking a crossbow out and about in that area of London? You wouldn’t raise an eyebrow? Enfield isn’t known for hunting, plus even then it’s illegal to hunt living things with crossbows. It’s not the sort of weapon that has an alternative, legitimate day to day purpose like kitchen knives or household cleaning products.

Do you work for the church? Are you male?

We are all flawed. An excellent way to make sense of such horror in a space where multiple views and sentiments are welcome.

Is this ok for you and your faux horror? Ascribing titles such as monsters is hardly fitting; perhaps look inward regards that arrow you are slinging.

Leave people to their expressions of control and feel satisfied that you are above such authentic expression.

If you're genuinely disturbed by it: scroll on by.

Have you ever watched the Human Centipede by the way?

I can see Clifford in position B. That's where he has his mouth attached to the anus of someone else. He can have Chris Watts in position C, attached to Clifford's ass.
I'm not sure who heads it up in position A just yet. I'll have a think and let you know. I might draw a diagram for you.

It makes total sense that jealousy and envy was an underlying emotion. The family seemed to be something that so many from dysfunction would envy.

I'm really cautious that the public will go for the family he came from. It's not necessarily the case that the parents were deranged, abusive or monsters.

Sociopathic states are created, but often unintentionally. Temperament plays a significant role. A psychopath, we believe, to be born and pre determined regardless.

You can have 2 people in the same family at the same age develop entirely differently; sociopathic one end, hyper vigilant highly sensitive the other end. What the heck happened here with these two men is something to truly ponder.

I really do wonder how it is for their mum. No one really extends compassion to the mother of murderers.

She could have easily reported him anonymously. As he took it out, he’d assume someone had seen him with it or seen him shoot at the house. This would make it extremely easy for her to report him without consequences or comments from him or her family. The police would then have found and removed his crossbow.

what good would it have done? People just want a circus, a show which is what it would have been if he was dragged in.
he’s
cowardly scum.

I don’t know, of course, but I think you are unusual. A crossbow isn’t a normal, common type of weapon. If a family member suddenly got one, I’d be reporting them if only so police could look into it and assess them and their intentions.

Forfeit the right to any privileges during their sentence that they might otherwise ‘earn’.

...and they wouldn't be interested, a Crossbow isn't a licenced weapon, you'd need some sort of evidence that they mean to cause harm before the Police would lift a finger.
The mother of the Plymouth shotgun killer pleaded with the Police not to give back his gun, they still did.

I think these murders may well lead to crossbows coming under the same legislation as owning a shotgun, though tbh, Clifford could equally have used a knife or some other household item.

And he would have found another way to kill them.

If he had been reported and the crossbow taken, I doubt very much there would have been a different outcome for the Hunt family, just a different method.

It doesn’t make it ok that his sister didn’t report obviously, but in real life siblings don’t often go around reporting one another and I do find it uncomfortable that blame is being, at least partially, apportioned to a woman in this case. She didn’t murder them. He did.

True

The 8 step pathway to femicide. Relevant to this case

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0029395?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

@PassingStranger is there have you tagged me in that comment?!

@Fountofwisdom I don't think that's in a judge's gift. That's a prison management issue. Running a prison must be extremely difficult and "privileges" are very much used to try to keep as much calm as possible.

At the very least, they should be held in a tiny cell with the victim impact statements and sentencing remarks piped in on a loudspeaker at high volume.

I think a lot of people say what they think they would do. And genuinely believe they would do that.

But if it came to it not many people are going to willingly get their sibling in trouble with the law and risk conflict within the family.

The sister who knew he’d gone out with the crossbow absolutely bears moral responsibility for not reporting it to the police. Some things over-ride misplaced family loyalty.

If my sibling drove off in a car when they were drunk, I would have no hesitation in calling the police. Going off with a lethal and illegal weapon is at least as serious and arguably much more so.

Plus, from the text transcript, she clearly had suspicions he was up to no good that day. So yes, she could have prevented 3 horrific murders but did nothing.

@Fountofwisdom the likelihood the family system was incredibly dysfunctional is significant. Members don't behave in expected ways. A sister to 2 brothers like that might never think twice to report her brother for anything through fear, obligation, wrath of the family, contempt.

It's incredibly complicated. There's a chance she's a huge victim herself in the family.

@Wishyouwerehere50 It's incredibly complicated. There's a chance she's a huge victim herself in the family.

That's my thinking too. I'm not one of those MN posters who believe that woman can never be in the wrong, but from the little we've learnt already I would not imagine that the Clifford family is an easy place to be a woman.

WHY on earth would he want to come to court - there’s nothing in it for him.
what if they did drag him in, cuffed to a wheel chair? What’s the point? What if he just started yelling abuse at everyone, called the dead women names, told the court to gonF themselves etc?

awful though this case is - that murderer feels NO regret right now - may after 10/15/20 years inside he will

@Fountofwisdom again that's not in the judge's gift. My point is people saying if they don't attend court they should get a longer sentence just doesn't work if the sentence is as long as can be.

Well this is just one case. Not everyone gets that, it’s quite rare.

Prison privileges is another.

They had ex justice minister Alex Chalke on the radio this morning with the sister of Zara Aleena (murdered by an attacker who refused to attend sentence).

The risk is that like with Axel Rudakabana and others they'll turn it into a spectacle and try to claim they are political prisoners, and further traumatize the families if they are forced to attend. But yes play it on loudspeaker to them

There will also be stigma for the little niece, I am sure people will point her out and talk about her being part of that terrible family. Who would want her playing with their children? Of course she is a total innocent in all this and in some ways another victim of the maladaptive dynamics of that family