AIBU to feel outraged that Kyle Clifford is able to refuse to attend court today?

[HappySonHappyMum]

I am absolutely outraged that Kyle Clifford can choose not to attend court to hear his sentence and be forced to listen to the impact statements being read out by John and Amy Hunt. I'm literally sitting here crying with rage and sadness right now listening to their words. He should be dragged there and forced to listen, he lost all rights when he committed rape and then murdered three women in cold blood. Why does he even have a choice?

Not sure who on earth voted that yabu. How strange. Of course he should have been forced.

Hmmm...doesn't matter, just put him tied up in a cage with a gag in his mouth and let him lie there while it happens.

Not just him, but this has become a thing recently...drag them in by the hair if necessary.

I'm very left wing and somewhat liberal, but why does society go soft on people who need to be forced/shown a lesson/whatever the appropriate course of anon is?

Whether it's tax dodging/violence/criminality of whatever kind, the state should be standing up for the vast, vast majority of society by not tolerating any of this piss-taking by these people.

NO. That's the point. They are rights that apply to everyone. You can't start picking and choosing which rights apply. That's the start of a slippery slope.

Prison officers do use physical restraints, but the problem is that someone has to get the restraints on first. That's the risky part. Any time that has to be done, it's exposing the people who have to do it to harm.

It's possible to use tasers in confined spaces. Some police forces have guidance on this. We don't routinely do it in prisons, there was a trial last year. In prisons not transport. But again, it's a potential danger to the people in the immediate vicinity.

There's just not a way to do this without exposing the people around the prisoners, who remember will often be very dangerous people, to avoidable physical harm. In a sector where staff already get attacked regularly, and vote with their feet. As someone with a relative who does this job, the lack of consideration for those expected to do the dirty work is dispiriting.

Yes and thank fuck for that.

Also no. That's why we don't allow the family decide the sentence and why we have judges and sentencing guidelines.

Yes. It’s unfortunate that prisoners cannot be compelled to face sentencing remarks and victim statements, but our legal system lowering itself to doling out medieval treatment is not a price I’d be willing to pay. That is not because I think criminals of this type deserve kindness, but because stooping to this sort of thing degrades us all. Including victims.

Absolutely, well deserved

I’m sure in light of what happened to Louise, seeing someone bound and gagged against their will wouldn’t be at all traumatic for her family

He would have to appear bound and gagged in order for him to be prevented from disrupting proceedings, this would open the door for the Andrew Tate brigade to treat him as a martyr.

That's an excellent idea and one I'd be fully in favour of.

Reading the transcript from the hearing was harrowing but I applaud John and Amy Hunt for their strength and dignity. The way they talked about Carol, Hannah and Louise as people and refuse to allow them to just be known as victims or this monster was incredible and I'm not sure I could have done the same in their shoes.

This quote from John Hunt really stood out to me, "The impact of what you have done will be taken to my grave, but on the way there I want you to know I stand strong before you today. As you, Kyle, are confined to a fate worse than death".

I think the potential disruption and the distress this may cause the victims family means it's better he isn't there

This is rehashed every time a case like this comes up. What is the point of making him come to court and be disruptive, when the important thing is the victim impact statements and sentencing remarks are publicly heard. He's not going to feel bad about it and change his ways. He's not getting out anyway.

Physically restrain the prisoner and drag them in, fighting and screaming and spitting? Gag them so they can't spit or shout? Hold their eyes open? Force the family sitting across the room to put up with it as they piss and shit themselves to make a scene? What are you achieving by it all. He's being locked up for the rest of his life and everyone knows he was too much of a coward to listen to the judgements. That'll do.

I would like the victims to be considered first and foremost, so if the victims family want them in court, they should be compelled to attend.

Apparently the judge didn’t want to see a wheelchair bound man shackled. Hell I’d like to have seen him bound and gagged with duct tape, just how he treated one of the women he murdered.

I was outraged as well. They should have got 6 of their strongest, cuffed him then manhandled him into a police van.

When you kill 3 people having tortured then for four hours all human rights can be waived as far as I'm concerned

Whole life order for this piece of dirt is the right outcome.

I can’t subscribe to this idea that wishing pain or mistreatment on him (and people like him) somehow makes us as bad as him.

He murdered people in cold blood and left a couple of their immediate family to live with it.

Those were normal, innocent, law abiding people going about their normal lives, bothering nobody, until he snuffed it all out in a brutal, violent manner.

If someone were to cut this guy’s throat tonight in prison, or to pour boiling water on him (or whatever form of violence they choose), they’d be doing it to someone who committed an appalling crime.

It’s not the same thing as targeting an innocent family.

Yes, we’re not the judge, jury and executioner and we don’t get to choose who has a right to live, but on a human level, I bet most people would rather he suffered.

There’s nothing wrong with that IMO.

He will absolutely get targeted in prison. I expect him to have to be put somewhere with the pedophiles.

This. And also why is he going to care about the impact statements? He won't give a shit so tbh I think him being there would be worse. I'd rather he wasn't there if I was a victim of him. I wouldn't want to tell them exactly how much they had harmed me and give him that satisfaction. You are assuming he'll feel like you do but I think that's very unlikely.

Same. Why hasn’t it happened! In the US they give extra punishments if they refuse to come to sentencing

I didn’t know that. Excellent idea.

The victim impact statements were incredibly powerful and how any of them were able to stand and read out the words I do not know.

John Hunt's closing words were particularly powerful:

”Kyle, just remember one thing: whatever sentence you are about to receive, whatever misery lies ahead for you, remember on your dying day there will be no release for you Kyle.

The screams of Hell, Kyle, I can hear them now. They’re going to roll out the red carpet for you.

You will realise your miserable fate will last for eternity.”

He will. I expect he’ll go to solitary until the media dies down and he’s safe to rear his ugly head. Then in full protection with the beasts.

Some protection wings also house guys who have committed non-sexual offences but have enemies in the rest of the prison or drug debts etc. Hopefully one of those guys is offered their debt forgiven if they do something to Clifford.

Wow! That’s very powerful. You can really feel it.

That's the kind of thing the current government are pursuing after Sunak started the ball rolling at the end of his term.

If you do t go to sentencing then time can be added etc.