AIBU to feel outraged that Kyle Clifford is able to refuse to attend court today?

[HappySonHappyMum]

I am absolutely outraged that Kyle Clifford can choose not to attend court to hear his sentence and be forced to listen to the impact statements being read out by John and Amy Hunt. I'm literally sitting here crying with rage and sadness right now listening to their words. He should be dragged there and forced to listen, he lost all rights when he committed rape and then murdered three women in cold blood. Why does he even have a choice?

I am not sure forcing him to attend court would do much good on any level. I don't think he'd feel remorse, I don't think it'd help rehabilitate him and I don't think it'd bring the poor family real closure. It's not really worth forcing it. He'll definitely hear the victim statements at some point.

If we're going to go down the road of just wanting to watch him suffer then I can think of much worse things that I would personally do to him. Give me 10 minutes in a room with him and he would wish he was dead. But that's not what the justice system is for.

I must admit to deriving some satisfaction from the fact that he only managed to disable himself rather than kill himself. That should make his jail term fun.

MoreDangerousThanAWomanScorned

What do you think you'd achieve from this?

Personally, nothing, obviously.

The family’s wishes ought to be paramount, though. If they want the criminal present for sentencing and impact statements, their wishes ought to outweigh the opinion of a detached judge.

We did all this about Lucy Letby and there were several people who worked in law enforcement who pointed out the dangers to them of doing the ‘dragging kicking and screaming’ thing.

My own view is that people can get over whipped-up about stuff like this. Is it that far away from public executions, floggings etc?

He’ll get his punishment. We don’t need a show.

I have really mixed feelings about this. While I don't like the idea of him being able to choose and would prefer to be the victims family in control, and unwilling participant could make things so much worse.

Someone has utterly lacking in any moral compass could easily take the opportunity to make the victims suffering even worse by being disruptive, aggressive or worse, laughing during the statement.

He'd have to have his mouth taped up - which I support. Because people like him have the potential to react like some victim or bait the family.

That would finish me off tbh. That's why it's not safe to have these beasts present sometimes. If we can gaffer his mouth, force open eyeballs with matchsticks, hands cuffed, we're getting somewhere.

Is this guy paralysed from the chest down after he tried to kill himself?

I think it’s good that he survived. He’s 26. He has a long time to sit in his chair and rot within a cell.

Galling that he’ll receive daily help though, from the NHS/carers. Leave him to do it himself. If he can’t, too bad.

HeddaGarbled

He’ll get his punishment. We don’t need a show

It’s not about “we”. Personally, I don’t think these trials should be filmed for public consumption.

It’s about what the family needs. Their wishes ought to override everything.

I'm inclined to think that the law should be changed so that prisoners can't be in the courtroom at all during impact statements.

Put them in a separate room with the video/audio playing, but give them no choice whatsoever about it, and take away their power from the situation.

I don’t give a shiny shit about him but it might make the family feel even a bit better that they’d looked him in the eye and had their say. Right or wrong, they deserve that. He deserves nothing except pain for the rest of his miserable life.

I think that could be a good balance. No risk of them shouting or laughing at the family, but they still need to hear what is said about them.

I suspect Clifford and others like him use the refusal as a last wield of power. Their last opportunity to say “fuck you” to their victims and the family.

I am against the death penalty but dear god this crime challenges that. Those lovely lovely women. How can men be so evil?

There needs to be a wholesale crackdown on the misogyny being pumped into these young men’s thick heads.

He should be wheeled in,gagged and forced to listen. No doubt one or 2 here will spout "human rights" 🤮🙄 He lost any rights when he murdered those poor women 🤬

Someone else said the judge said it wasn’t appropriate to use restraints on someone in a wheelchair. I think they were also worried about him disrupting the proceedings and being a cunt basically.

Unfortunately this piece of shit does retain all his human rights in spite of what he’s done, but I agree fully with your sentiment.

We need matchstick enforced eyeball opening with the gag.

What's terrifying is there is going to be at least 1 penpal writing to him after this.

As much as I dislike the fact he has this power / control to be able to say no I'm not going, I don't see how you can force someone. If you physicly restrain them and bring them in (which isn't easy, may risk injury to prison officers and may not be legal - whether you agree with that or not), then they might shout / scream / spit. If you gag them they might make a non-verbal protest eg rocking, kicking, bashing the side of the box. You can't force them to attend by saying there's an additional tariff on your sentence if you don't because if it's a whole life order you're already locked up for life. You could possibly go down a if you don't attend and behave you won't get certain privileges in prison for the first x months, but I don't know how feasible that is. I think perhaps the only way to do it is that if you don't attend you have to be in a room and listen, but this would have to be with the prisoners microphone and camera off to stop them disrupting or disrespecting it in any way.

I agree.

Yet it seems to be the latest trend for high profile cases. Like the final 🖕

And then take him to the top of a steep hill,hand breaks off the wheelchair and watch him go🤬😬WHEEEEEEEE!! 🤬

Yep. Chris Watts who murdered his pregnant wife and two little girls gets hundreds of letters, apparently. Marriage proposals, gifts, money…you name it.

This is the solution.

I don’t agree with dragging them into court, it isn’t fair on the officials who will have to do it. Make him sit in a padded cell, with the proceedings played (very loudly).

Understandable to feel pissed off.

However, the idea that people in his position should be dragged in is impractical. This sort of thing is dangerous- most people in this position aren't wheelchair bound and lots of them are very nasty indeed.

We already don't have enough prison staff, and the ones we do have get attacked regularly. Also the prisoner transport system is unreliable, and after the first few serious attacks, G4S, Serco or whoever it got hived out to would decide they weren't in a position to drag the really dangerous unwilling prisoners either. That's if they'd even do it in the first place. Serco got fined millions the last time someone doing this job was murdered.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65724123

I love the idea of playing impact statements into their cell on a loop 👍

These criminals that refuse to go to court, need to be dragged there to face the music instead of being complete cowards. Though, I’d rather fry him than let him rot in prison, but that’s not the debate here.

A noble sentiment. Will the family be paying the compensation costs when staff are attacked?

They should all be gagged, strapped to a board and wheeled in

How horrid. The family is that of the murdered victims. Are you saying that staff can’t manage dangerous criminals? This evil scum is paralysed from the waist down so he should easier to restrain.