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To suspect the "deal" between the US and Russia Greenland for Ukraine?

1000 replies

FancyRedRobin · 05/03/2025 09:02

The way things are shaping up I'm beginning to think the USAs negotiations with Putin were for USA to stand aside and let Putin have part of Ukraine and for Russia to support the US to take Greenland.

OP posts:
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LovingHare · 07/03/2025 18:05

Parker231 · 07/03/2025 18:04

Trump would loose his presidency if Canada joined as the Democratics would have a huge majority. Trump would have to start learning French - it’s one of our recognised languages.

the extent of this impact would depend on how Canada’s population is integrated into the U.S. political system, such as how many electoral votes or congressional seats it would receive.

ColourBlueColourPurple · 07/03/2025 18:06

Trump wasn't like this first time round. He was one of the only presidents who didn't start or participate in some kind of war wasn't he? What is happening?

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 18:06

Parker231 · 07/03/2025 18:04

The constitution would have to change to reflect Canadian values.

The U.S. Constitution provides a framework for admitting new states. Any new state would be expected to operate within the existing constitutional structure of the U.S

Parker231 · 07/03/2025 18:08

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 18:05

the extent of this impact would depend on how Canada’s population is integrated into the U.S. political system, such as how many electoral votes or congressional seats it would receive.

We have 10 provinces and 3 territories - we’re powerful. We’d need our free healthcare, superior education and gun control.

DuncinToffee · 07/03/2025 18:08

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 18:06

The U.S. Constitution provides a framework for admitting new states. Any new state would be expected to operate within the existing constitutional structure of the U.S

The US could be admitted as a Canadian state

edited to change would to couldBlush

Parker231 · 07/03/2025 18:09

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 18:06

The U.S. Constitution provides a framework for admitting new states. Any new state would be expected to operate within the existing constitutional structure of the U.S

Which is why we won’t be joining a shambles of a country. Although I think Texas should be returned to Mexico.

Serpentstooth · 07/03/2025 18:10

Dear Lord above, @LovingHare, you need to get a firmer grasp of reality before you part company with it completely. Bigly lies. So do his supporters, the media and social
Media which they own. Your country, USA, has been subject to a coup and is being run by a mafia. Concentrate.

Parker231 · 07/03/2025 18:11

DuncinToffee · 07/03/2025 18:08

The US could be admitted as a Canadian state

edited to change would to couldBlush

Edited

We don’t want them - no benefits to us.

Parker231 · 07/03/2025 18:13

Am waiting for Trump to apologise for the deaths in Ukraine in the past 24 hours.

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 18:13

Serpentstooth · 07/03/2025 18:10

Dear Lord above, @LovingHare, you need to get a firmer grasp of reality before you part company with it completely. Bigly lies. So do his supporters, the media and social
Media which they own. Your country, USA, has been subject to a coup and is being run by a mafia. Concentrate.

maybe it has, then i hope other world leaders can save the day, i need the hotline for British SiS

Parker231 · 07/03/2025 18:18

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 18:13

maybe it has, then i hope other world leaders can save the day, i need the hotline for British SiS

Edited

Why would anyone save America? It’s of their own making.

Psychostates · 07/03/2025 18:20

Parker231 · 07/03/2025 18:18

Why would anyone save America? It’s of their own making.

They've made their bed...

logicisall · 07/03/2025 18:26

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 15:09

but in the long term if it makes it better than how is that bad, just because it seems that way now, what if long term his methods make it better ?

I'm continuing to engage with @LovingHare because I detect a genuine attempt , if a bit misguided, to try to understand the situation. I say attempt because they are not following the arguments through by trying to think of possible answers to their questions. TV shows are for entertainment and often don't reflect reality.

In which ways does current US actions make things better?

Is it all Trump smoke and mirrors, or are things actually better? If so, what are they?

Looking at a future USA, list the ways in which things will be better in the long term.

Is there a distinction between what is good for the USA in terms of power on the world stage and what is good for Americans in their everyday life?

XWKD · 07/03/2025 18:32

TempestTost · 07/03/2025 17:54

I've wondered about this. People like the "Trump is a Russian spy" idea but it isn't necessarily the simplest explanation of why he might be interested in working with the Russians.

It's not a totally crazy thought, it's always been a worry that China and Russia would be allied against the west. I could see why from both an American and Russian POV it might seem better for a Russian-American agreement of some kind. It's not totally unprecedented, Russia was allied with the west in WWII.

Europe is increasingly irrelevant, they have little military power, their economy isn't all that, and the world balance is shifting to China and India. And European powers keep making stupid decisions like becoming reliant on Russian oil. What can Europe really do for the US?

The fact that Putin is a lying ass crazy-pants would be a concern, but he's also canny, so perhaps would keep to an agreement that was in his interests.

From a utilitarian perspective I think it could make some sense, not to say that it is what is happening.

How is Europe becoming irrelevant? Its economy is vast. It's no less relevant than the US. It has four economies that are bigger and more important than Russia's. Russia is nothing without its military.

How is Europe's (dwindling) dependence on Russian oil any more "stupid" than the US's dependence on Russian uranium?

biscuitandcake · 07/03/2025 18:33

ColourBlueColourPurple · 07/03/2025 18:06

Trump wasn't like this first time round. He was one of the only presidents who didn't start or participate in some kind of war wasn't he? What is happening?

He did do that strike on Iran (Jan 2020) to assasinate someone that led to Iran retaliating with missiles on a US base. And Russia were making threatening noises as well. It was just after New Year and actually quite stressful at the time because Iran were very hyped up and Trump was being Trumpy and it felt like it could have slowly escalated into something bigger (especially with Russia being a nuclear power). But.. then Covid hit and distracted everyone. It probably wouldn't have led to all out nuclear war in reality but you could write a scenario where Covid actually saved the world but we don't know it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Martyr_Soleimani

He also continued (and ramped up) an existing policy of drone strikes in Yemen etc. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/ I don't know if that counts as a war (the war on terror?) or just something America does in peacetime. But if it was a war it was one he continued and escalated.

So, while he wasn't the most warmongering American president by a long chalk, I do think the argument put forward this time round that he always refrained from starting or participating in wars a bit forgetful.

StandFirm · 07/03/2025 18:37

Kleptocracies are never good for any country long term. Russia's economy could be SO MUCH STRONGER if it weren't rigged in favour of the oligarchs sucking it dry like vampires. In fact, it's tragic to see how such a vast country with so much potential, educated people, and such natural wealth could be behind Italy as an economic power. Guess why that is! Is that what Americans want? Ending up like Russia?

biscuitandcake · 07/03/2025 18:37

Typically level headed and calm mumsnet discussion from the start of 2020: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3787523-do-you-think-there-s-going-to-be-a-ww3?page=3&reply=92883291

I feel like replying now saying "NO, there's not going to be WW3 there's going to be a plague you fools!!!"

But people were stressed about war at the start of 2020. We all just forgot because we got stressed by other things.

Page 3 | Do you think there's going to be a WW3? | Mumsnet

Trump scares the hell out of me. Is there going to be WWIII?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3787523-do-you-think-there-s-going-to-be-a-ww3?page=3&reply=92883291

Notsosure1 · 07/03/2025 18:41

.

Notsosure1 · 07/03/2025 18:43

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 14:59

Because he is trying to put America first, his methods could be better but if he looks after the country as a whole then why is that bad ?

You realise this is Putin and every other dictator/ colonist’s argument don’t you?

StandFirm · 07/03/2025 18:49

I would strongly argue that Trump is not in fact putting America first... much of what he is doing is undermining US power in the long term.

biscuitandcake · 07/03/2025 19:04

@LovingHare It is true that America has probably the strongest military in the world and spends the most on it (I only say probably because there is a possibility China is underplaying its defense expenditure but its still almost certainly America). But, despite this, America has needed assistance from allies/individuals to achieve its goals. e.g.

  • Defeat of ISIS in 2019 (they are still kicking around but at one point they controlled a rather large area). America was by far the main player, but they needed the Kurdish fighters for local knowledge etc. Also the Kurdish soldiers (men and women) were unbelievably brave. American soldiers who were there said this. The Kurds allegedly helped in the assassination of the ISIS leader of the time.
  • Assassination of Bin Laden. Huge deal at the time. Involved highly trained US SEALs and incredibly careful planning. Also the assistance of a local Pakistani man who posed as a Polio doctor to get DNA samples.
  • Afghanistan. Apart from the NATO allies, Americans also needed local interpreters to do their work. There were tensions - but they would not have been able to operate at all without them.

I choose those cases because they involve small "insignificant" players who without a doubt were much less powerful militarily than America but still needed. Unfortunately the allies/helpers in each of those examples were not exactly rewarded for their efforts. Look it up if you have time.

Each time someone breaks a promise/lets down an ally it makes other people less likely to partner with them next time. Its why the fall of Assad was seen as a strategic loss for Putin. Game theory.

America's military strategy relies on having bases around the world. It has world leading logistics but that relies on having bases in friendly countries. Its nuclear deterrence relies on having weapons stored in other countries. Its nuclear detection and nuclear defence systems rely on radar in other countries (in a limited exchange of nukes the theory is this could save 100,000s of American lives). Having US bases, nuclear weapons, radar on your soil makes those countries more at risk of attack should someone ever attack the US. And guarantees being caught up in a nuclear war if god forbid that ever happened. However, in exchange the US provides security guarantees. No-one would drop a bomb on an American weapons silo in a foreign country, or drop a nuclear bomb on an American ally so the theory goes because they would face retaliation. MAD makes everyone safe. But if people stop believing that America would actually respond to an attack on its allies, that security guarantee disappears. And therefore it becomes a bad idea to have an American base/weapons/radar on your soil.

That was very long but basically, it is not simply a case of the rest of the world "taking advantage" of America. America has wanted bases etc and assistance from other countries/people and has had to make promises in turn.

biscuitandcake · 07/03/2025 19:08

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 16:54

all i tryed to do is offer a different view on strategy ,

If you want to learn more about strategy then you could do worse than learn to play Go. Its a very old game, and probably a better metaphor for international politics than "3-D chess" etc.

poetryandwine · 07/03/2025 19:10

LovingHare · 07/03/2025 18:05

the extent of this impact would depend on how Canada’s population is integrated into the U.S. political system, such as how many electoral votes or congressional seats it would receive.

The population of Canada, 40M+, is slightly bigger than California, 39M+. The latter has 52 members in the House of Representatives.

Even the most conservative Canadians are more like old fashioned Republicans than Trump’s MAGA people. Canada has a National Health scheme; the details may be controversial but one hardly senses the American system is preferred. In America, any ideas for a National Health scheme are considered very liberal. Canada has an Assisted Dying law which breaks similarly in America, etc.

In short, Canada would get at least 52 House members and they would likely break heavily Democratic after elections. This is based on overall population, so it doesn’t matter if Canada counts as one state - ridiculous on the basis of area - or several states. This would give short term control of the House to the Democrats. Trump knows this.

The number of states is significant when it comes to the Senate, because each state gets 2 Senators and again one expects the Senators to break for the Democratic party.

But I don’t think this will happen. I think all the talk about Canada is to distract middle class, working class and poor Americans from imminent tax cuts for the rich

Parker231 · 07/03/2025 19:13

Latest from Trump: "Canada and Mexico have been taking advantage of us for years!"

Fact: Donald Trump personally negotiated the last trade agreement with Mexico and Canada

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