To be horrible to my four year old?

[appleandcat]

My four year old is a complete pain at the moment.He argues with everything I say and I mean everything. It’s literally being argumentative for the sake of it. It’s very draining and to be honest a bit depressing having everything you say disagreed with (I’ll say something like ‘I’m just nipping up the stairs!’ and he’ll say hourchily ‘you’re NOT going up the stairs.’)

So - I lost it a few days ago and I’m not proud of it but I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend. Horrible words and I did apologise for them but the thing is that it worked and he stopped arguing with me and whining at me.

Now we’re back to ‘normal.’ I have read the books and I’ve tried the techniques and all go ignored. And I’m actually wondering if I need to be a hell of a lot harsher and maybe that roaring out is what he needs. It’s certainly what my parents would have done: but I grew up with no confidence and I obviously don’t want that!

He is fine at nursery. So no idea what’s going on with him.

Read her comments before your judgement. It’s perfectly possible to have a personality (ie. emotional reactivity) that does make you ‘horrible’ for others to be around, whatever age you are. Her DS might have a genetic trait that makes him oppositional as she describes in her family. OPs venting to adults and getting some good advice among the hysterics.

I don’t think I will cope with him as a teenager. I’m already worried the relationship is irrevocably damaged.

You need to walk away from the situation if you feel you are going to lose control. Go to your bedroom or shut yourself in the bathroom. Those words are very damaging, and can never be unsaid

I’m actually wondering if I need to be a hell of a lot harsher and maybe that roaring out is what he needs.

Sorry but that will only make things a whole lot worse in the long run. Harshness and roaring work once. Maybe twice. Then one of two things will happen. You roar and he wont stop and then what will you do? Roar louder? Say something worse? Hit him? Or he wont get used to it, instead he'll be permanently anxious that you're suddenly going to yell insults at him. You're right, you do need a better long-term strategy.

When he is being irritating I'm afraid you need to be boringly calm and consistent. Ignoring is a skill worth learning. Yes it takes effort and patience (and acting ability! I deserve an Oscar for some of my ignoring performances) but it is very powerful. It doesn't work instantly but if you back up ignoring the negative things he says with warm praise for every bit of good behaviour and mix in plenty of non-judgmental attention (neither praise nor criticism) then it works a treat over time.

I don't know what books you're reading but here are a couple of "oldies but goodies" to put you on the right track.

"Incredible Years" Caroline Webster-Stratton - lots of effective strategies, brisk and practical, and some helpful ways to deal with our own misery when our children misbehave
"Parent-Child Game" Sue Jenner - good on positive communication and shared attention and on how our own childhoods influence our parenting (ignore the melodramatic introduction, the rest of the book is very wise and practical)

And yes, if you can get into a parenting group it will probably help a lot. Good luck!

I think this is a very fair reaction - children need to learn.

OP, that was really truly awful what you said to him. Unforgivable.

It's hard work OP, I get it. My 4 year old has just come through a similar phase of being oppositional and argumentative.
Distract
Ignore non-issues (eg ignore pointless silliness but not dangerous or very rude behaviour)
Offer 2 options only when saying 'I don't want this/that etc'
Be clear on reasonable consequences and stick to them even if it 'ruins' the day/afternoon etc
Routine and lots of energy expending activities built in - not crazy and excessive but enough to tire out

I genuinely felt tears pricking my eyes when I read it. That was vicious wasn't it? Poor little boy

But I wouldn't advocate ongoing personal statements or attacks as it'll become his inner dialogue and it'll harm the relationship long term

Sorry OP.. I agree with the above.

He's going through a frustrating stage. We've all felt exasperated and maybe raised voices at times, but the choice of words was over the top to say the least. But I think you know that and that's why you're asking here. All you can do is move forward from here. I came from a very shouty family and I still remember it vividly.

On a practical level. It sounds as if you are engaging in the argument.. and he gets a real reaction from that.. your example.. I'm just popping up the stairs.... No you're not.. yes I am etc. You know you are going up the stairs anyway, so there's no more to be said. Just stop reacting to the contrary statements. Or have some jokey comments up your sleeve if you feel it needs an answer... something you can say in a friendly voice... like "So you say!" or "What's that over there!" or change the subject anything distracting.
I think he's trying on the arguments because he really wants your attention. So work out kinder ways of diffusing them. Let yourself count to 10 and try to stop seeing it as deliberately annoying.

The trouble with arguments and losing it is that when you amp it up, they amp it and where does it end? It is a hard thing to do but try lowering your voice and keeping it even and level, particularly when they are getting louder. drop down on one knee and look them in the eye and say.. you don't need to shout. What do you want to say? Speak to him when he's quiet, maybe at the table, when things are calm and talk to him about it.
I know it's easy to say all this, and some times hard to apply, but these techniques have worked.

It sounds like you are taking this way too seriously. If my small ds had said "you're not going up the stairs" I'd laugh to myself and completely ignore him. Why are you letting such silliness bother you so much?

So - I lost it a few days ago and I’m not proud of it but I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend

I rarely judge parents for losing it - kids can be infuriating - but that is an awful thing to say to a 4yo and you mustn't speak to him like that again.

We all lose it at times as parents, but what you said was not okay, I hope that you know that. You apologised, which is a good first step but you also need to take steps to mitigate what you said to him, and what he undoubtedly now believes is true. An apology won't fix that.

Poor kid 💔

Its one thing to snap and shout but it’s cruel to say hurtful things.

Of course your son is going to struggle to behave.
Not only is he only 4 but he has you as a role model.

You need to be modelling good behaviour and that means controlling your emotions.

Your son is a small child and cannot act like a robot but if you model good behaviour then it will be easier.

Having rules and discipline are good things.
Losing your temper is not.

Is his mum/dad involved?

I was responding to her comments! 😂

He's only four, his personality and behaviour is not fixed and their relationship is not irrevocably damaged.

And I did suggest she consider if there may be SEN.

Thanks for the useful advice. I’ll log out and have another read some other time but right now I think hiding the thread is for the best; for the most part it is not enormously helpful. I am frustrated and at the end of my tether with things and obviously I shouldn’t let that show. But seriously, it’s going to come as a shock that a whiny and argumentative individual will impede on others’ enjoyment of something? I have to pretend loving being whined at, a muttered monologue of ‘it’s NOT a lovely day, I don’t WANT an ice cream, that’s NOT a duck (yes really.)’

Who do you think I am?

Can you get some support or help with managing your response to his behaviour? Praise and positive reinforcement can be helpful.. Things like using sticker charts for gaining bigger rewards in the longer term, mini rewards like playing a game with him if he corrects his behaviour . Also, not giving in to demands as this just reinforces the fact in his mind that if he shouts, hits out or whines enough it gets him what he wants. If you do need to punish him - (say he doesn't do as he's told after two requests, tell him the third time he does it it will result in a punishment, this gives him a chance to self-correct) - make the punishments appropriate for his age (I think it's 1 minute per year of age in time out, or removal of a favourite toy or activity for a short time. Follow through each and every time so he knows poor behaviour results in consequences. In the meantime, if it gets too much, can you make sure he's safe and go and take a few deep breaths?

Also, limit screen time and try to do more interactive things with him, reading a book, walking to the park and feeding the ducks etc.
If he's not in a bedtime routine, get him into one. If he resists try to make bedtime an enjoyable, predictable routine, eg bath, read with him and then leave. If he gets up, it's back to bed...till he stays there. This will give you some downtime for yourself too.

Remember you're the adult and have to show self-control and restraint. No one is perfect but you need to model the behaviour that you want to see in your child. Keep calm, clear instructions, rewards or consequences. Kids are great at pushing your buttons, getting a reaction etc but you have to do your best to stay calm. You can't take back harsh words or personal, hurtful comments.

Years ago, I remember sitting in the car while my mum went in to the supermarket and a mum went past with a child, a boy of about three or four, who was trailing behind her. He was sobbing. She was saying the most God awful things to him... eg I can't fucking stand you, get away from me.. I remember feeling sick to my stomach. I didn't intervene and I often regret that. I'm not what I would have said or done or what reaction I might have been met with but I sometimes think of that little boy and the damage that must have done to him.

You got to the end of your tether, you realise that now. It isn't the end of the world, but yes do apologise and say you didn't mean those words.

He may have a PDA presentation if it carries on and on. It is easy to say he's four and he will grow out of it... but sometimes they don't... and it is completely draining when you have a 14 year old behaving in the same way who is bigger than you.

It's worth trying different approaches which might guide you to what is going on. Take a look at the PDA Society for resources. Very different ideas to manage behavioural issues but might help you if other methods don't:

www.pdasociety.org.uk/i-am-a-parent-carer/resources/helpful-approaches-for-children/

What an over reaction. A 4 year old will grow out of annoying behaviour and will learn to manage their emotion from good role models and opportunities to socialise over time. They won't need punishment and shouting at 4 years old to prevent them becoming a hooligan.

Try reading the thread before you comment. She didn’t say those words apparently, she was paraphrasing.

Are you serious?

You don't "deal with it". He's 4 and he will grow out of it. If you have concerns about his behaviour being different to other children or being a concern then talk to your GP.

I have read her comments. She lost me at walking him “that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend”. That’s horrific to say that to a four year old!

Yeah, SEN on a small scale is my first reaction. It’s a good call as the projection on here gets out of hand when she is here asking for advice.