To be horrible to my four year old?

[appleandcat]

My four year old is a complete pain at the moment.He argues with everything I say and I mean everything. It’s literally being argumentative for the sake of it. It’s very draining and to be honest a bit depressing having everything you say disagreed with (I’ll say something like ‘I’m just nipping up the stairs!’ and he’ll say hourchily ‘you’re NOT going up the stairs.’)

So - I lost it a few days ago and I’m not proud of it but I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend. Horrible words and I did apologise for them but the thing is that it worked and he stopped arguing with me and whining at me.

Now we’re back to ‘normal.’ I have read the books and I’ve tried the techniques and all go ignored. And I’m actually wondering if I need to be a hell of a lot harsher and maybe that roaring out is what he needs. It’s certainly what my parents would have done: but I grew up with no confidence and I obviously don’t want that!

He is fine at nursery. So no idea what’s going on with him.

My DD has just turned 4 and we (myself and DH) have both been on the receiving end of her tantrums and answering back. It can be so frustrating and exhausting and I do not blame, or judge you for shouting, we're all human with emotions and all get to a point where we've had enough and lost it/shouted, even though we know we shouldn't, it's so hard not to sometimes!

We've used sticker charts to encourage good behaviour, (brush teeth, flush toilet etc) Another one was 'good listening' and 'do what mummy/daddy says' which sounds like something you really want your DC to do, and use something she likes/enjoys as a motivation to do things, (park, tablet, etc). We found that worked. Also as much as people roll their eyes at it, the 'whole 'naughty step' thing has also worked. If you can and safe to do so, try leaving the room and catch your breath for a minute.

I Think it's just a case of trying to not get drawn into arguing with your toddler and try to remember it is a phase, that it's just their stage of development and they can't help it at this age, they will grow out of it. 🤷‍♀️ Good luck! 🤞

If he says "I don't want an ice cream," then don't give him one. Even if he shouts for ages. It will be worse for a while if you can cope with that, but better in the long run. Don't give any treats etc if he does say no to them initially. Ignore all "bad" behaviour and immediately praise good.

OP you absolutely could be parenting my 3 year old! It’s relentless, and it’s mentally challenging. He only does it to me too which is also hard! Please just give him a big cuddle and breathe. Does he do it to be silly, controlling, out of anger? I think you need to work it out before you can really address it.

It will pass.

Not laughing or ignoring or reasoning. He needs discipline. He is four and not innately blessed with reasoning and therefore needs to be taught boundaries.

I’m sorry for you that it’s gotten to this stage @appleandcat and I’m sure you feel absolutely terrible about what’s happened. You sound like a kind and loving parent but not correcting children is doing them such harm. This I want an ice cream/I don’t want an ice cream/I want an ice cream business is absolute madness. He either wants one or doesn’t (gets one shot) and then lives with the consequences. That is how human beings learn. Kids constantly push the boundaries to learn and when there are no real consequences then they will push and push and push.

I have a friend who is so very lovely but simply doesn’t discipline her kids and it has harmed them so much socially. They’ve failed to thrive in their respective peer groups because they’ve lost out on the fundamental idea of not getting their own way all the time.

Parenting is HARD. And I absolutely support and believe in gentle parenting while having clear boundaries in place. Because once children have an understanding of what is and isn’t ok then gentle parenting is the norm. Going from being totally indulgent to losing your shit isn’t good for you or your child. So in future you set the ground rules. We are doing this, then this and if you’re good we can have an ice cream at the end etc. The pandering has to stop.

You're fine OP honestly some of the reactions on here.
Shouting at a 4 year old and pointing at that their behaviour has consequences for you and will socially when you're flipping out is not verbal abuse ffs.

Have you seen any of the teacher threads about how unmanageable kids behaviour is now? Gently gently works sometimes and sometimes they just need to know

We've had about a bzillion kids over for play dates and the ones whose parents flip out sometimes tend to be better behaved. The gentle parenting crowd are a right royal PITA by and large.

I come from a loving home with parents who lost their shit when I was misbehaving and I neither resent this or feel in anyway that I was mistreated. Bad behaviour gets a bollocking - you calm down and chat it out. Hug it out. Boundaries are drawn. Don't go to bed on an argument.

When they go out into the big wide world, bosses, colleagues, tutors, associates whoever aren't going to pussy foot around them gently persuading them to see the error of the ways and coaxing them to do the right thing.

You are human and you have limits and it's okay, nay important for your child to know this.

I haven't read all this thread so don't know if my idea is original, but have you tried humouring him? For example, when he says "It's not a big hill" reply with something like "yes, you're quite right, it's a tiny hill". Then maybe he will say "No, it's a big hill" and you can say "Oh yes, it is a big hill," and so on. He may actually decide you're being silly and that it is a big hill after all.

Hello OP. Firstly just want to say I admire you for reaching out for help on here. It’s a bit of a minefield isn’t it. Children’s anxiety can cause behavioural issues for example feeling insecure because you’re going upstairs and this may be a manifestation of feeling anxious at nursery or school and not having the communication skills to share his feelings with you. There’s many reasons why his behaviour is challenging. From being tired, hungry, worried. As someone already suggested - offer two choices. He’s growing up and wants some autonomy. You could say “would you like an ice cream?” Or, would you like to go home? He gets to choose. Once he answers, don’t change the agenda just get the ice cream or go home. Use this methodology going forward for everything for example “would you like to wear the blue trousers or the red trousers? This will enable you to feel in control and him too as you’re giving him choices. Reach out to your child’s school and local children’s centre for help and advice. Professional support will be really helpful for you and your family as well as non judgmental. Does he enjoy reading books with you, if not, encourage it, it’s calming and he will feel secure sat with you having you all to himself for 10 minutes. Incentives for you both are him looking forward to reading his favourite story at bedtime with you. Also try working on when you feel triggered, if it’s safe for the children you can walk into another room. Take a step back when you feel angry, rein yourself and refrain from thinking negatively about his behaviour. Take a deep breath and remind yourself he won’t be this young forever. This way you’re not trying to ignore it, which you’ve tried but you’re having the control over your own way of thinking. Furthermore remind yourself of how you’re feeling too. Think to yourself “I’m tired”, I’m hungry, Tune in with yourself to help you tune into your son. I am sure you’re aware that all children need and want are their basic needs met. However mums need theirs met too. The toughest job in the world is being a parent. Be kind to yourself xx

OP, I've been dealing with this since DS2 was 3! And he's nearly 6 now. Only just getting slightly better, but still can gets into my nerves. I just lose it once today though (extremely proud of myself).

Don't ever say things attacking him as a person. We shall only talk about behaviour and things they do.

I do sometimes want to scream "why do you want to be so unpleasant!". But never did. The closest was "why do you want to make everyone cross?" or "people would want to stay away from you if you treat them like that".

Believe me. I broke down in tear so many times for about two years, literally didn't know what to do with him.

But he's slowly growing out from it. Very slowly...

Remember, their view of the world is not how we adults see it.

Just reading a blog a few days ago, making me more conscious that they are still learning and they are not aware what their own actions do to others.

theobservantmom.com/the-misbehavior-and-growth-of-a-five-year-old/#parenting

My child developmental research, which I have been doing on a nearly daily basis for 7 years now, shows that just about everything about a child’s growing awareness of reality comes down to not just if they personally see something but if you see what they see, too. Human consciousness is largely collective. None of us really believe something is true unless someone also agrees that they see what we see. Five year olds are really trying to see if you see what they see and, if not, how they can rectify that situation. This might explain why they are prank-pulling punks, as well as why they might “lie” sometimes. What is real? What is not? Can they trick YOU? That they CANNOT trick you will tickle them. In their late fives, they are especially tickled that they cannot trick you not just over external objects (salt in a cup, etc.), but about who they themselves are. They cannot trick you by pretending to be sleeping, etc. This helps them develop a deeper self-awareness. Children need this. They need you to see them so that they can see them. At four, children developed self-awareness as such. They became aware that they exist and also that they can die. At five, they develop an awareness that you are aware of them.

This is part of the quote. And this reminds me as a mother to accept and show empathy that THEY ARE VERY YOUNG. So young that they sometimes really don't realise what they do is not what they really want to do. (They don't do it just to be your enemy... They don't mean it.)

Remember that. And like others said, don't take it personally and suck it up until they grow out of this phase.

Love him by standing your ground to guide, but do so compassionately with love.

Honestly, I’m surprised by how many supportive replies you have in response to this. I am rarely judgemental and I am not one of the MN ‘pile on’ brigade, but the things you shouted at your 4-year-old are appalling to the point of emotional abuse. I understand that his current behaviour is challenging, but you are the adult here and you should be aspiring to be a loving mother, not someone tearing his self esteem to shreds. As others have said, he is going through a phase. You have to find a way to ride it out without screaming at him and certainly not screaming that he is horrible and no one will like him etc! You need to ignore him way he makes those comments and reward him with play, smiles, cuddles etc when he behaves well. As for your “I’m wondering if I should be harsher”. I can’t imagine what that would be given what you have already done, but it wouldn’t be appropriate.

She is asking if the other parent is involved 🙄

Wow! So you screamed personal abuse at your child in a small enclosed space. You realise anyone walking past your car will have heard it, could have taken your registration number and reported it to Social Services.

Your follow-up post saying you are concerned that the problem is his personality, rather than a phase and that you will have a bad relationship with him when he’s older suggests this may be quite a deep problem, not simply a reaction to him being annoying. Respectfully, it may really help for you to have some counselling. It wouldn’t give you support and help you to work through any deeper issues.

Gentle parenting is not the only alternative to screaming personal abuse of the kind that damages self esteem. It’s find to occasional shout something like “you do not speak to mummy like that, go to your room and no yoghurt after tea”. It is never acceptable to scream “I hate being with you and you will never have any friends”. I’m sure you must be able to see the difference.

She didn't "scream" that. She came back later and clarified that she said (in a raised voice) something about not enjoying the day, and that if her son continued to behave the way he did then he probably wouldn't make many friends.

All of that was factual information and did not attack his character. It might not be the most effective or kind way to frame it for a 4yo, but it is hardly abuse.

Anyway, I came back to add two more things which I forgot to my long post with lots of suggestions - these are things which took me much longer to learn but have been very useful.

• Not taking DC words literally - especially at 4. They can sound so articulate and certain, but being able to use words in an appropriate context doesn't mean that they fully understand the implications of every single word. Language is an extremely lossy communicator, even with adults - but especially so for children, and particularly if they are under about seven. They can mix up the meanings of words and also mix up what they want to say, they frequently miss the context that adults will put into words or phrasing. You do get fairly good at working out what your own DC mean obviously but in general, if you're finding you are getting hung up on verbal interactions - try disengaging a bit from the words they are saying and try to think what they might possibly be trying to communicate.

Two examples of this which spring randomly to mind - when I was about seven I told my mum that I had seen a scorpion on the carpet at school that day. She was surprised and asked me if I told the teacher about it. I thought this was a silly question and said no - the teacher wouldn't have been interested. When I recall the memory the picture I have in my mind is a fairly large black shiny beetle. I just liked the way the word scorpion sounded, and decided that any sufficiently large and prickly seeming insect MUST be a scorpion. In my head, that made total sense as an item category - it was much too lovely a word to be wasted on a single thing. I don't even know if I did this knowingly or not -it's possible I didn't realise that it was a wrong classification until I was older. Or perhaps I picked it up from another child. Either way, things like that happen all the time as children pick up new vocabulary. (I was very amused by my 6yo's insistence today that if you drink poison you must find the anti-goat as soon as possible).

Secondly my 3yo speaks English at home but his nursery staff and peers speak German. He doesn't like to speak German so he mostly refuses to speak to anybody, now that his brother has moved to another class and can't translate for him any more. If you mention the word English to my 3yo, he will proclaim "NO! Not English!" That is because of course, when we speak to him it's not like we announce that we are speaking English. He probably only ever hears the word English if his teacher says to him something about the difference between English and German, so he thinks that English = foreign language. But if you took him literally saying "No English" then you'd get entirely the opposite of what he means.

• Processing time. This is such an underrated tip in fact I have only really come across it recently. But for some children who seem to have this very sensitive hair trigger and everything is "No" or the opposite of whatever you say, it can be because they feel bombarded with information and they can't take it all in at once, so the automatic lash out is their sort of defence mechanism against that. It can help if you say something like "I've got an idea, would you like to hear it?" or "Would you like to know what we're doing next?" Then count 30 seconds before you respond to their response. It's interesting because I have noticed that in doing this I often get an immediate, aggressive "NO!!!" and then less than 10 seconds later, usually, a much softer, more enthusiastic "Yes, actually, yes, what are we doing?" - it will be interesting to see if doing this over time reduces the automatic arguing.

@BertieBotts I think her first post (before she saw the responses to it) is likely to be the accurate version. She stated herself, very specifically that she screamed those comments at him.

I hope you can find some IRL support as how you are perceiving him right now is damaging to both of you.

If you have a view of yourself being a smiling agreeable parent, but this is how you really feel, he can also pick up on your lack of authenticity.

Possibly how he responded reflects this, as you were behaving congruently for once - but also the type of thing that can play on kids minds and cause them to shut down, with lasting damage on self esteem (you yourself alluded to that from your own upbringing). I would absolutely not want to repeat it, no matter that you got a relief from his behaviour.

How you’ve portrayed him here and compared him negatively to your brother, especially in contrast to your view of yourself, suggests there is something helpful to work through with a counsellor. As well reflecting on your own up bringing and role modelling, which could be useful to reflect on in your parenting now.

This would hopefully support a healthier view and relationship with DS and certainly make parenting him less personal and triggering for you.

A 4 year old can be annoying, but nowhere near as challenging as parenting a teenager, you can’t assume what it will be like or it will be less soul destroying. At that point they have also learned things that will most upset you and weaponise them, but even then it’s not personal. Not saying that for any other reason other than to emphasise how critical it is to get a handle on yourself as a parent while he still young.

Agree with PP who said need to find coping strategies, but that includes how you are thinking about DS, neither toxic fake positive persona nor hurtful shouted put downs.

. Even something like offering him an ice cream, he sullenly mutters ‘I don’t WANT an ice cream.’ So then you say ‘ok, no problem!’ ‘I WANT AN ICE CREAM.’ Obviously a few times a day fine but constantly is hard hard going. I don’t want or expect slavish gratitude or anything but a little appreciation or even neutrality would go a long way!

OP your son is four. Your expectations are completely unrealistic. Four year olds don’t do “appreciation” and “neutrality”, they do “I want an ice-cream, not I don’t”, etc.
This behaviour has nothing to do with your son’s personality, or how your son will be as a teenager, or your experience of your brother growing up etc. you are finding dealing with a four year old challenging (understandable) and projecting.

We all lose our shit sometimes, but your words were unacceptable. You did well to apologise. Don’t think for a minute that what you said was ok. Children are very literal and they take things to heart- if you say things like that your child will internalise them and feel unloved / unloveable. They might become more compliant, they will also fail to develop any sense of self worth.

My nine year old GD contradicts me and answers back constantly, it drives me bananas. I'd hoped she'd grow out of it too.

Gosh it's just a phase. He's learning language skills. He will soon learn that doesn't work if you ignore. Nothing lasts for long with small children. Just start singing The wheels on the bus, or something to distract.
I get we all get stressed but that was pretty mean. I'm finding it hard to sympathise if I'm honest because I feel a bit heartbroken for the little guy.

Hey OP .
You shouldn’t have said what you said , but saying something like that once is not going to damage him ….

My friend once described her relationship with her 5 year old as very stressful, how her 5 year old was very stubborn & they were always locking horns , TBH , I thought it was Mental !
We are adults, they are just kids ..
Describing your relationship as “always arguing “ ..& with a 4 year old ! !
It doesn’t make sense to me 🤷🏻‍♀️..
Obviously I realise kids can be very , very trying but they’re kids & there is always a way of making it work with them …
I think the sticker reward is a brilliant idea , a PP mentioned it above ..
Seriously you should def try that ..
Good luck with it all x

@budlea64 you clearly haven’t had a 4 year old kid in a few years! I don’t think ‘wheels on the bus’ will help unless it’s a particularly biddable one! That would work on my baby but not my four year old and I think OP is playing on a harder setting than me!

The rest of your advice is good but I feel you’re minimising quite how infuriating a tricky four year old can be to even the most mother theresa like parents. I literally do meditation to cope with my wee hellion!

Read “we need to talk about Kevin” and don’t buy him a crossbow. 😱🤣

Seriously OP, have you thought of putting him in nursery? Little bugger’ll be too worn out to wind you up after a day out of the house!

Plus he’ll miss you - I’ve always thought working mums miss out more but cherish spending time with their kids more - and the kids with them.

Did it work like that in your house?? I'm so jealous!

My two were/are SO much worse after a day at school/nursery. In some ways I'd had some space so had a bit more energy to deal with it, but mostly we were actually better on the days without time apart. I just thought that was normal, but guess it's all so very different in different houses.

Also OP I read we need to talk about Kevin years before having kids and it still haunts me!! Just a warning ⚠️ It's a great book though!

I’m quite shocked at how many people are condoning his behaviour. It’s highly problematic to say “he’s only 4” or “it’s a phase”. That’s all well and good at the moment, but you need to start early with building respect. His behaviour is annoying and you as a fellow human being and family member were highly irritated by his obnoxious behaviour. You have every right to express your frustration and sometimes a raised voice brings it home to a child that they have pushed and pushed you. I try not to raise my voice too often as the more you use it, the less effect it has but children need to know that they can not exist as little emperors.

The reality is that if he tries that on outside the home, when he starts school, he won’t have many friends. Kids are very good at voting with their feet if another kid is constantly being annoying.

@appleandcat do you mind if I ask if you’re a single parent? If not, how involved is your partner with your DS? Are you doing most of the childcare?
Do you work? How often is your son in nursery? If it’s becoming relentless and you’re with your son the majority of the time, maybe it would be helpful to you to have an hour to yourself each week to do a gym class or a hobby, something that you would enjoy so you get a break. If you don’t have a partner, do you have friends or family around who could watch him? We all have a breaking point and can flip which is why it’s important to put your own life jacket on first and make sure you’re mentally in a good place and are taking time for yourself. As I think other people have mentioned, your DS id likely behaving at nursery or around other people but misbehaving around you because you are his safe space and he feels safe enough to push these boundaries with you. I wouldn’t recommend continuing the fear tactic and yelling because then your son is losing his safe space but I’d maybe try and seek some professional help or guidance. From your posts it sounds like he can become irate or angry quite quickly which does suggest a potential for neuro-divergence. If you get him tested support could be put in place to help the both of you and make your life easier without you having to result to yelling