Page 5 | Non binary

Fullofquestions1 · 2025-02-21T20:53:01+00:00

Watching first dates and someone said they were non binary and asked the bar guy what his pronouns were. I just don’t understand surely you are male or female whether that be what you were born or not. I just can’t get my head round not feeling youre either. Can anyone please put it in simple terms for me.

Ineedcoffee2021 · 22/02/2025 06:00

Redcliffe1 · 21/02/2025 21:00

As a straight woman I can't imagine being gay but doesn't mean others are therefore not gay. What happened to live and let live.

Thats all well and good, live and let live but the bar guy was asked at work

He should be able to go to work and not have to discuss his pronouns with anyone as its no ones business. What happens if he refuses? they make a complaint about the bar guy not being inclusive or whatever?

If i was asked this by a customer at work, my response would be 'nunya' aka none of your business. I dont go to work to talk about pronouns or what i identify or not as

AnSolas · 22/02/2025 06:52

Breezeblock · 22/02/2025 05:49

Yes and I believe it can be quite frustrating, even insulting, to be compared with people who just are deciding they have a feeling about it.

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LGB +T + Q + I organisations who add the ' I' are doing it for the money. And why the 'I' not a 'D'

LGB have been sorted in legislation in the West.
And public attitudes were such that police and politicans wanted the positive PR. So lots of lobby groups are without a cause.

Most people would not even know that the other person had a odd genetic code and that this resulted in various medical conditions. So little of no social stigma element in any discrimination.

The issues apper to center around the medical treatments and unlike the TRA most are seeking low to no interventions. So one organisation is intending to pitch 2 polar opposite views on medical treatments. But money is allocated from public funds or charity donations which would otherwise be given to a single cause organisation.

Original poster

Fullofquestions1 · 22/02/2025 07:02

iwentjasonwaterfalls · 22/02/2025 00:52

I identified as non binary for a while. I had severe body dysmorphia and was dealing with a traumatic childhood rearing its head. Somewhere along the way this translated into gender dysphoria in my head. I hated hearing myself referred to with "she" and "her", but felt equally repulsed by "he" and "him". They and them felt good. I hated my body and wore a binder.

At no point was it anything to do with stereotypes or gendered souls or anything like that. I know mumsnet users have very strong views on this, but they oversimplify the matter and think it's all about feeling special and wanting attention. I wanted eyes off me at all costs.

Eventually my mental health improved; I'm female and comfortable being called "she" again, got rid of my binders etc. I changed my name, but I don't regret that.

It's a weird middle ground. Trans activists tell you that you never really felt what you know you felt and you were just pretending; anti trans activists want you to be another example of a detransitioner and fight alongside them. I have friends who are trans, I have friends who are GC. I acknowledge that amongst the pretenders and the ones who want to feel special and the attention seekers there are people who are working through mental health situations and, given time, the phase will pass. I'm focusing on my mental health and my 'journey', not getting involved.

I do have a question; one of the things I've seen as an argument against the "live and let live" position is the compelled speech of pronouns. Where do names stand in that? If a trans person changes their name, is it compelled speech? Meanwhile I changed my name as part of the healing process, for separation from trauma - is that also compelled speech? It's something I've wondered a lot lately.

Thank you for sharing, this makes it, make me more sense I can see understand why you felt that way. Pleased you’re mental health has improved.

OP posts:

MrsJamin · 22/02/2025 07:13

LoserWinner · 22/02/2025 01:02

Aw, come on! Many of us ask other people to refer to us using our preferred terms - Ms vs miss, for example, or a shortened version of our given name. When I have my professional hat on, I expect to be addressed as ‘Dr LoserWinner’, and I quite like my grandchildren to call me ‘Granny’. If someone wants me to refer to them using a particular set of pronouns, it’s not an issue. No-one is telling you what you MUST say, do or think, they are just asking you to respect their preferences when you are talking to or about them. I’m happy to do that.

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Did you read my post? I have to use the nb man's preferred pronouns otherwise I would have to leave my hobby group. It is compelled anti-factual language, not a choice. And it's not at all the same as titles, when do you ever mention a title in someone's presence?!

MrsJamin · 22/02/2025 07:15

Moier · 21/02/2025 23:23

My daughter has a friend who was born intersex.. he/she hasn't quite decided if they want to be female or male.. been having counselling years. Parents brought them up as a boy .. they have a large clitoris that looks like a small penis but no vaginal opening.. they have a uterus but no breasts .. just nipples.. can produce sperm but also get pregnant via IVF.....didn't want any medical intervention.
They have both have both ovarian and testicular tissue.
They are non binary.

I don't think this is real. No one has been born with both large and small gametes, it doesn't occur. You can have a mix of secondary sex markers but no one has ever been able to produce both eggs and sperm.

QuizzlyBears · 22/02/2025 07:27

You are entitled to ask questions, but starting a thread you know is likely to go like this is unreasonable. Nothing promotes hate on mumsnet like ‘conversations’ around gender. People fear what they can’t understand.

Waitingfordoggo · 22/02/2025 07:30

That was my understanding too @MrsJamin, although the poster said the person could become pregnant via IVF as they have a uterus (implying they do not have ovaries). So perhaps there is a DSD where the person has testes and a uterus (it would be extremely rare I'm sure).

Either way, that medical condition would have nothing to do with typical male and female humans declaring themselves to be non binary.

WillIEverBeOk · 22/02/2025 07:42

suggestionsplease1 · 22/02/2025 00:06

It doesn't appear that you have met many trans or non-binary people in real life as it appears you have been hoodwinked by a right-wing trope doing the rounds.

Most trans and non-binary people just want to get on quietly living their lives and are presently very fearful of the culture of intolerance and hostility towards them that is being cultivated.

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Most of us have met/known trans and non-binary people. Which is exactly how we've come to our views.

Original poster

Fullofquestions1 · 22/02/2025 07:50

QuizzlyBears · 22/02/2025 07:27

You are entitled to ask questions, but starting a thread you know is likely to go like this is unreasonable. Nothing promotes hate on mumsnet like ‘conversations’ around gender. People fear what they can’t understand.

yes I lack understanding and that’s why I asked the question.

theres always going to people with strong opinions that’s doesn’t mean these questions shouldn’t be asked

OP posts:

Original poster

Fullofquestions1 · 22/02/2025 07:55

The more I am reading about it the more I feel it seems like a form of control. That is my very simple view on what is likely a complex thing.

please correct me if I have got the wrong idea

OP posts:

Funykeudfh · 22/02/2025 07:55

TunipTheVegimal24 · 22/02/2025 00:32

It always turns into a bunfight about whether people agree with others being non-binary or not. It never answers the actual question of what it is / what it means / how it feels.

And if anyone tries to explain it, they get torn apart. MN is notoriously un-objective when it comes to anything to do with trans / non-binary issues. I don't have particularly strong feeling either way on the issues, but I do understand them, as much as anyone cis can do. Because I try not to be ignorant of things going on in the world (even if they don't affect me). But I've seen so much metaphorical foaming at the mouth on here, where the mere suggestion of understanding something in concept, is taken as a personal insult (from both points of view).

I just think that if OP genuinely wants to understand it, and isn't just being goady, there must be a place that explains it better than on here.

You lost me when you used 'cis' that is not a thing- absolute load of shite. I am a woman that's it end of - don't enforce labels on people.

MaxCrisp · 22/02/2025 07:56

If you've applied for a passport recently, you'll know you can lie about your sex in your application and have the wrong sex marker recorded. Absolutely ridiculous.

This is in response to Fullofquestions1 who asked about passports.

AnSolas · 22/02/2025 07:57

QuizzlyBears · 22/02/2025 07:27

You are entitled to ask questions, but starting a thread you know is likely to go like this is unreasonable. Nothing promotes hate on mumsnet like ‘conversations’ around gender. People fear what they can’t understand.

The too stupid to understand trope.

So its irrational women
And as the silly women lack understanding they must end up fearful

My bingo card near full

Or women with lived experience (al a bingo ) who understand that non binary is rigidly forcing society into boxes and women as a group always loose out when we are forced into Barbie or Stepford Wives mode.
Most adults have been around long enough to watch children grow and throw tantrums as they realise that they cant force others to comply to their will.
And lots of people cant be arsed getting involved in someone elses Faith. Worship away (even in public) but dont demand aplause or forced participation.

TheKeatingFive · 22/02/2025 08:01

Waitingfordoggo · 22/02/2025 07:30

That was my understanding too @MrsJamin, although the poster said the person could become pregnant via IVF as they have a uterus (implying they do not have ovaries). So perhaps there is a DSD where the person has testes and a uterus (it would be extremely rare I'm sure).

Either way, that medical condition would have nothing to do with typical male and female humans declaring themselves to be non binary.

This is, I believe, technically possible. But there have been only a handful of known cases of this in history, so it would be very, um, opportune, if the poster knew someone with this precise disorder.

The person in question is male as they produce small gametes not large ones. A male with a very complex and exceedingly rare DSD.

This is totally irrelevant to the wider gender identity conversation

AnSolas · 22/02/2025 08:03

Waitingfordoggo · 22/02/2025 07:30

That was my understanding too @MrsJamin, although the poster said the person could become pregnant via IVF as they have a uterus (implying they do not have ovaries). So perhaps there is a DSD where the person has testes and a uterus (it would be extremely rare I'm sure).

Either way, that medical condition would have nothing to do with typical male and female humans declaring themselves to be non binary.

And pregnancy is a whole body function.

So the IVF would be cutting into the body to attempt to inplant a baby into a non functioning body part in biological system with hormones levels etc designed to create sperm.

TheKeatingFive · 22/02/2025 08:08

AnSolas · 22/02/2025 08:03

And pregnancy is a whole body function.

So the IVF would be cutting into the body to attempt to inplant a baby into a non functioning body part in biological system with hormones levels etc designed to create sperm.

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Yes, I'm not aware that anyone has ever carried an IVF baby to term with this condition. It would seem highly unlikely because of the hormone profile, as you say.

Ddakji · 22/02/2025 08:18

iwentjasonwaterfalls · 22/02/2025 00:52

I identified as non binary for a while. I had severe body dysmorphia and was dealing with a traumatic childhood rearing its head. Somewhere along the way this translated into gender dysphoria in my head. I hated hearing myself referred to with "she" and "her", but felt equally repulsed by "he" and "him". They and them felt good. I hated my body and wore a binder.

At no point was it anything to do with stereotypes or gendered souls or anything like that. I know mumsnet users have very strong views on this, but they oversimplify the matter and think it's all about feeling special and wanting attention. I wanted eyes off me at all costs.

Eventually my mental health improved; I'm female and comfortable being called "she" again, got rid of my binders etc. I changed my name, but I don't regret that.

It's a weird middle ground. Trans activists tell you that you never really felt what you know you felt and you were just pretending; anti trans activists want you to be another example of a detransitioner and fight alongside them. I have friends who are trans, I have friends who are GC. I acknowledge that amongst the pretenders and the ones who want to feel special and the attention seekers there are people who are working through mental health situations and, given time, the phase will pass. I'm focusing on my mental health and my 'journey', not getting involved.

I do have a question; one of the things I've seen as an argument against the "live and let live" position is the compelled speech of pronouns. Where do names stand in that? If a trans person changes their name, is it compelled speech? Meanwhile I changed my name as part of the healing process, for separation from trauma - is that also compelled speech? It's something I've wondered a lot lately.

In answer to your question, it boils down to the difference between propwr
nouns (in this, a person’s name) and pronouns.

A person owns their own name, and they can change it, spell it how they like, pronounce it how they like.

Pronouns are part of language which belongs to all, not to individuals to chop and change the meaning of if they feel like it. The 3rd person singular pronoun for someone female is she, for someone male he, and for someone who’s sex is unknown they.

Therefore there is no such thing as preferred pronouns just as there’s no such thing as preferred adjectives. Imagine if someone short, fat and middle aged insisted their preferred adjectives were tall, slim and young. It’s exactly the same thing.

monsterfish · 22/02/2025 08:22

Taken from the LGBT website: Because non-binary includes anyone that doesn’t fit the traditional narrative of male or female, non-binary communities are incredibly diverse. Non-binary people may identify as both male and female or neither male nor female. They may feel their gender is fluid can change and fluctuate or perhaps they permanently don’t identify with one particular gender. The range of language and labels used within non-binary communities means that non-binary has become an inclusive umbrella term. Some examples of terms commonly used by non-binary people.

Unfortunately the site does not go into the what the traditional narrative of male or female, which is the problem. It is this insistence that anyone who falls outside the traditional narrative (hair, makeup, girly clothes) must be unsure of their gender which is just not true.

So what is the traditional narrative of male/female - women in particular have felt times have moved on and have proved over many years that the traditional norms have moved along.

Trans is what an individual is more extreme, they wish to change sex to some to extent, which is immutable.

AnSolas · 22/02/2025 08:26

TheKeatingFive · 22/02/2025 08:08

Yes, I'm not aware that anyone has ever carried an IVF baby to term with this condition. It would seem highly unlikely because of the hormone profile, as you say.

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There is research into men been able to support an uterine organ transplant the same as a woman
And the only reason for that is with a aim to have a male carry a baby to term

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gynecology-obstetrics/specialty-areas/uterine-transplant

So I am sure if there was male who fell into the research paramaters his medical history would be the basis of a valuable research paper.

iwentjasonwaterfalls · 22/02/2025 08:33

Ddakji · 22/02/2025 08:18

In answer to your question, it boils down to the difference between propwr
nouns (in this, a person’s name) and pronouns.

A person owns their own name, and they can change it, spell it how they like, pronounce it how they like.

Pronouns are part of language which belongs to all, not to individuals to chop and change the meaning of if they feel like it. The 3rd person singular pronoun for someone female is she, for someone male he, and for someone who’s sex is unknown they.

Therefore there is no such thing as preferred pronouns just as there’s no such thing as preferred adjectives. Imagine if someone short, fat and middle aged insisted their preferred adjectives were tall, slim and young. It’s exactly the same thing.

Show quote history

This makes complete sense, thank you. It was one of those things I kept going over in my head!

SapphireOpal · 22/02/2025 08:39

tonyhawks23 · 21/02/2025 22:01

I cant believe this whole thread! these replies! Ive reported it as cant be real!

Is this your first day on Mumsnet?

aspidernamedfluffy · 22/02/2025 08:43

We are all, to a certain degree, "non-binary". I, for example, hate football, rugby, beer, have no interest in cars and many other male gender stereotype stuff so I must be a woman. On the flip side of that I love motorbikes, paintballing, have no interest in fashion, don't wear make-up, never played with dolls and couldn't give a fat rat's crack about many other things that are deemed as "things women/girls love" so, according to some, I must be a man. IMO the term "non-binary" is just nonsense as it just means the person who declares themselves as such is the same as everybody else who doesn't conform to what is deemed as "acceptable" based on that person's sex.

Todaywasbetter · 22/02/2025 08:47

BloodyKellHen · 21/02/2025 21:02

No one would have a problem with it if there wasn’t a constant demand to play along and modify our speech and thoughts for the sake of their feelings.

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what has being gay got to do with the word 'non-binary'?

AnSolas · 22/02/2025 08:53

Todaywasbetter · 22/02/2025 08:47

what has being gay got to do with the word 'non-binary'?

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Saying no to Ladydick and mangina
🤷‍♀️

UndertheseaPineappleHouse · 22/02/2025 08:54

I mean, from my point of view it’s perhaps a useful thing to say on a dating show, because it would immediately eliminate the man who described himself that way from my dating pool 🤷‍♀️. (There aren’t any women in my dating pool). I am only attracted to men (as in sex not gender) and find men who want to be seen as feminine or as not-masculine unsexy.