Non binary

[Fullofquestions1]

Watching first dates and someone said they were non binary and asked the bar guy what his pronouns were.
I just don’t understand surely you are male or female whether that be what you were born or not. I just can’t get my head round not feeling youre either. Can anyone please put it in simple terms for me.

This.
Not everything's about me. Leave people alone

Same, and well said.

It always turns into a bunfight about whether people agree with others being non-binary or not. It never answers the actual question of what it is / what it means / how it feels.

And if anyone tries to explain it, they get torn apart. MN is notoriously un-objective when it comes to anything to do with trans / non-binary issues. I don't have particularly strong feeling either way on the issues, but I do understand them, as much as anyone cis can do. Because I try not to be ignorant of things going on in the world (even if they don't affect me). But I've seen so much metaphorical foaming at the mouth on here, where the mere suggestion of understanding something in concept, is taken as a personal insult (from both points of view).

I just think that if OP genuinely wants to understand it, and isn't just being goady, there must be a place that explains it better than on here.

It’s not the same. If someone I meet is gay it has no impact on me at all. If they’re non-binary then they’re forcing me to use pronouns that don’t match what I’m seeing.

There’s no such thing as “cis”.

I agree OP. I mean, just by claiming you are 'non-binary' means you acknowledge there IS a 'binary', ie, man and woman.

I have never known a generation to be so obsessed with identity and insisting that all of society buys into their ideological beliefs.

Ooh that didn't take long, wondered who'd be the first to chime in with that 😁

I can't tell whether this is a joke or not, but if it is, you win the award for deadpan 😂 I love it either way.

It's an ideology that suits older males who want more access to women and to the captured young.
A bit of a phase now that even younger people are moving out of, best to nod and change the subject if it comes up.
Hopefully the change in America to make sports fair again and the outcry against the suffering of the Scottish nurse will create ripples to further improve things for women and young people.

I identified as non binary for a while. I had severe body dysmorphia and was dealing with a traumatic childhood rearing its head. Somewhere along the way this translated into gender dysphoria in my head. I hated hearing myself referred to with "she" and "her", but felt equally repulsed by "he" and "him". They and them felt good. I hated my body and wore a binder.

At no point was it anything to do with stereotypes or gendered souls or anything like that. I know mumsnet users have very strong views on this, but they oversimplify the matter and think it's all about feeling special and wanting attention. I wanted eyes off me at all costs.

Eventually my mental health improved; I'm female and comfortable being called "she" again, got rid of my binders etc. I changed my name, but I don't regret that.

It's a weird middle ground. Trans activists tell you that you never really felt what you know you felt and you were just pretending; anti trans activists want you to be another example of a detransitioner and fight alongside them. I have friends who are trans, I have friends who are GC. I acknowledge that amongst the pretenders and the ones who want to feel special and the attention seekers there are people who are working through mental health situations and, given time, the phase will pass. I'm focusing on my mental health and my 'journey', not getting involved.

I do have a question; one of the things I've seen as an argument against the "live and let live" position is the compelled speech of pronouns. Where do names stand in that? If a trans person changes their name, is it compelled speech? Meanwhile I changed my name as part of the healing process, for separation from trauma - is that also compelled speech? It's something I've wondered a lot lately.

Just remembered it's the end of halfterm.

The term 'cis' annoys the hell out of me!

I am not 'cis' anything I am a 'woman'. I know 'cis' basically indicates 'not trans' but that doesn't mean anything to the vast majority of people. Biological women don't need a 'qualifier' to say they are not something, they just are women.

Aw, come on! Many of us ask other people to refer to us using our preferred terms - Ms vs miss, for example, or a shortened version of our given name. When I have my professional hat on, I expect to be addressed as ‘Dr LoserWinner’, and I quite like my grandchildren to call me ‘Granny’. If someone wants me to refer to them using a particular set of pronouns, it’s not an issue. No-one is telling you what you MUST say, do or think, they are just asking you to respect their preferences when you are talking to or about them. I’m happy to do that.

So what if people who aren't doctors go round asking to be referred to such? Should we respect those preferences? Can I go round asking to be referred to as a Duchess or a Reverend, d was pure being neither? Is that valid?

Its a way that some people try to be trendy. Its privelaged nonsense.

As long as they are not misrepresenting themselves in a legal context, we should respect all people’s preferences, I think. It’s basic courtesy. In one role I had, one woman was referred to as ‘Duchess’ to distinguish her from another colleague with a similar name - her husband’s given name was Duke. What harm does it do you to be nice to someone, even if indulging them seems silly to you?

Well in the case of pronouns it gives credibility to the idea that biological sex is less important than 'identity'.

If you agree to call men 'she', it makes it harder then to make the argument that 'she' shouldn't be in a woman's prison or rape crisis centre.

If you agree to call people 'they' then you make it harder to assert that sex is binary and immutable.

Words have to mean something for clear discussion (and therefore protection) of people's rights. We have always used pronouns in relation to people's sex. For example, we use them for babies and animals - none of which have a 'gender identity'.

So what changed this and where was the period of debate where we all agreed it was better to do it this way? Because I seem to have missed that.

Many mumsnetters are concerned that the proliferation of trans and non binary children is precisely what you are describing - the out working of trauma and mental ill health, but that the affirmation at all costs model is actually denying those kids the mental health support they really need. Instead of therapy, they get encouraged to take artificial hormones and explore surgical options, which can potentially put them onto a road that it's difficult to turn back from if their feelings change..

I'm glad your mental health has improved and that you're comfortable being female now. I don't think name changes come under compelled speech, people change their names all the time for all sorts of reasons , so I wouldn't worry about that. I hope you continue to be well and have good people supporting you, I have a daughter with serious mental health problems, and it's a really hard thing to cope with.

With all due respect, this is a recognised medical condition, something which a lot of those calling themselves non-binary DO NOT have.

Nobody is intersexed
And he has a DSD and is therefore male as humans come as 1 of 2
So the body part producing male sperm is a male penis.
And a male body is not designed to regulate pregnancy
And everybody has breasts in a male they visually remain as part of the chest as a whole.

Exactly this.

But who you are attracted to is a feeling, and that’s fine. However you feel is the truth of the situation. Your sex is a biological fact that feelings can’t change, however powerful they might be. The two are totally different things that aren’t at all comparable.

And the mostly who dont live quierly are out and loudly and agressively proving the right-wing trope to be based on fact.

And unsuprisingly they are mostly male with right-wing values demanding that women shut up, put up and obey.

Yes and I believe it can be quite frustrating, even insulting, to be compared with people who just are deciding they have a feeling about it.

And the scottish doctor?

One rule for female employees undressing but a different rule for you if you want single sex provision?

How nice should I be to a work mate when I have control over who can access your body?