To be disgusted at the talks between Russia and the US

[SunnyDayInFeb]

So Russia and the US are meeting in Saudia Arabia to carve up Ukraine.

And Ukraine, whose people have been fighting and dying since their country was invaded, haven't even been invited to the table.

It's like we are back in the 19th century with the European colonial powers drawing lines on a map to divide Africa between them.

As I said, you really need to understand how he does business. He hasn’t said he would take it by force and there was a strong dose of humour in his offer to buy Greenland. The end point he has in mind is not always the same as the opening gambit. Like the Mexico example I gave.

Infinitely more disgusted by Keir starmer wanting to send UK troops to be butchered. That’s escalation into world war, not peace brokering.

It's the end of the free lunch. Trump is not going to underwrite Ukraine and not NATO.

We are in a world of actual power, not soft power, or international law. Russia has a wartime economy now. What will they do with all that capacity? Not just fuck off home that's for sure.

Interesting language. You assume a peacekeeping force will be "butchered". By who exactly?

And undermine the Chagosians by excluding them entirely from discussions about a deal to give Mauritius the British Indian Ocean Territories. The Chagosians want them to remain British. They have been treated very badly by the Mauritians. It’s also strategically an utterly foolish idea. I don’t understand why the Tories started it or Labour have gone along with it.

@wholettheturnipsburn I don't think any of the men forced to go have much choice

As for us sending peace keeping forces. What happens if it turns to a hot war again?

Are we then at war with Russia? Depressing thought if so

Agreed. Russia controlled half of Europe in the relatively recent past and it will want to do so again if allowed to do so. In that interview with Carlson Putin couldn't stop talking about Poland. The empire building colonial mindset is alive and well in Russia.

Russia itself is a pretty miserable, poor and corrupt country for ordinary people. So was Eastern Europe under their control. Today countries like Poland are vibrant and thriving.

In fact Russia may wish to take things even further. Remember that western europe was given a lot of support from the US to resist Russia during the cold war.

This is right. Ukraine was persuaded by the West to give up these weapons. Morally we are complicit in the destruction of their security.

We all know what happens next. The treaty is concluded, and an election held, with a nice Putin friendly government installed.

I wonder what will happen to all those post Soviet states in the EU with their nice liberal governments after this? I think we all know what happens, because we have seen it before.

Trump's a lawbreaking arsehole, but these negotiations are pointless; Ukraine will not recognize the resulting decision if Ukraine is not included. That's pretty standard. The potential dealbreaker here would/will be the US withdrawing funding for weapons for Ukraine.

Also, the not joining NATO stuff is a red herring; NATO's charter says it will consider any country that fits its relatively simple criteria for membership and neither NATO itself nor any member country including the USA can bypass that. That's why there's been so much pressure for Ukraine itself to promise that they won't join NATO (and, in some cases, the EU). The previous overtures from Russia were NOT believed to be in good faith, and demanded other unacceptable concessions - but the NATO/EU stuff on its own is something which Zelensky has previously said that Ukraine would consider. But if Ukraine's not there, it can't be guaranteed. (Or to put it in Trumpian terms, no deal.)

I don't recall asking you.

🔈🔔💥💫🌶! ! ! ! ! S P O I L E R S ! ! ! ! ! 🌶💫💥📣♨

.... others can see what you post on this site.

Bless the posters who honestly believe that Trump is doing this out of the goodness of his heart because he wants to stop people from dying. The naivety is sweet but also terrifying.

Trump has his eye on Ukraine's mineral reserves. America First.

Hard to say whether the minerals are what Putin's after as well, or whether it's a more general attempt at colonial expansion.

It's shocking that the US and Russia are not even bothering with a pretence of involving Ukraine in the talks. Usually there is at least some kind of nod to the ideals of sovereignty and self determination. But I guess we should be grateful for the fact that they are at least being honest.

Europe now faces a tremendous dilemma in how to respond. Do we stand by and appease the major powers, while they carve up Ukraine between them? Or do we try to stand up for our values in the full knowledge that we have neither the economic nor military might to enforce them? We don't know where either path might ultimately lead, but we do know that both are fraught with danger.

Agreed. Appeasing Putin doesn’t work in the long-term. The West stood by when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014 and with hindsight, that was the wrong decision.

Putin is said to like this famous quote by Lenin, on the subject of looking for landmines: “You probe with bayonets: If you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdraw.”

Why is it delusional to think that Putin might want to annex the Baltic states?

He clearly had no issues annexing Crimea in 2014 and then attacking the rest of Ukraine three years ago.

Look back to 1938, when Germany annexed the Sudetenland (on the basis that the Germans there were being persecuted) and the "Anschluss" of Austria in the same year. Germany then made a pact with Russia to eliminate Poland by invading in 1939 and dividing the territory between them.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Interesting about NATO membership. EU membership is more complex and I suspect Ukraine will not meet the admissions criteria for a long time.

The US are out, the taxpayers have given mandate

They were funding a lot, do we and other EU countries want to pay now instead?

We'll all feel differently on that one

As for sending troops what's stopping it going from peace keeping to fighting?

America always aims to get its money back. I think we are the only country stupid enough not to.

This is the first blow for the death of NATO and the EU.

What can the UK do? Try and support a fragile peace in Ukraine with troops rather than have Ukraine become a Russia military dormitory on the edge of Europe? At least Starmer sees the risk. He and others will see that once the current Ukraine government fall (out of a window or similar) then the slow drip of poison against democracy by Russia and it's supporters will uptick into EU states that border for the former USSR.

It would be nice if Ireland joined NATO and stuck some money in right about now.

Yeah and I see a pig flying past the window on Ireland joining NATO.

America is massively benefiting from this war going on as long as possible. They want as many Russian (and N Korean) troops off to be slaughtered as they can get. Plus Russia's money going into local war and not the space race or long range weapons to use against the US. Throwing money at it from a distance without having to get physically involved or sending troops is more than worth it to them. A massively weakened Russia is beneficial to them in every way, and all they have to do is walk in the end as the heroes and pat them on a shoulder and be diplomatic.

I didn't say they would, I said they should.

We have done a lot to train Ukrainian troops. I think U.K. troops on the frontline would enflame things. We have a long history of fighting Russia (Crimean War). It would be better if other NATO countries provided peacekeepers.

Yes, there are some suspicious
posts on this thread aren’t there?

I would love to think you are right. But I think Ukraine will find it hard to continue the war without US help.

Maybe if Europe (including the UK) could get its act together and build and supply more weapons Ukraine could continue to fight a war of attrition. But the warning signs from the US have been clear and Europe has not done enough.

Also I think all member states have to agree before a new country joins NATO.

@whatawonderfultime if that was their intention they wouldn't be pulling the plug

God there are some scary responses!

YANBU at all OP

It’s deeply troubling.

An authoritarian dictatorship has managed to both invade its neighbour and kill vast numbers of people, and has installed a puppet in the White House so that it can get on with the killing unimpeded.

The Kremlin has played a massively long game here, and Brexit was part of it - to weaken Europe.

This is not a genuine attempt at peace. It’s an attempt to carve up Europe just as Hitler and Stalin tried to do 80+ years ago. The whole “ethnic russians” business is literal Kremlin propaganda- no one has killed more russian speakers in the east than russia.

Europe needs to massively step up right now - just thank our lucky stars we got rid of the enormously compromised Tories in time.