To be disgusted at the talks between Russia and the US

[SunnyDayInFeb]

So Russia and the US are meeting in Saudia Arabia to carve up Ukraine.

And Ukraine, whose people have been fighting and dying since their country was invaded, haven't even been invited to the table.

It's like we are back in the 19th century with the European colonial powers drawing lines on a map to divide Africa between them.

I say the same back to those implying posters are not genuine

Report it instead of the hidden digs at posting times etc

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/19/trump-ukraine-war-russia-could-have-made-a-deal

Trump is so pro putin that it is unbelievable. This man is not an ally of the UK.

“Today I heard, ‘oh, well, we weren’t invited.’ Well, you’ve been there for three years ... You should have never started it. You could have made a deal,” he said.

God help us all.

I am so not being unreasonable that a country should be invited to peace talks about its own future that I would have expected 5% or less to disagree.

That's regardless of what you think about European military spending, Britain's involvement etc.

Tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it.

Soon half the world will get amnesia and forget that Russia invaded Ukraine whilst they fought off a massive invasion with very little help from the outside world.

I watched him. He basically blamed Ukraine for starting the war. 'If they'd have given up a bit of land then they could have prevented the war and deaths'. He's definitely mad and delusional and also very powerful. A dangerous combination, Just like Putin, dangerous.

that Russia invaded Ukraine whilst they fought off a massive invasion with very little help from the outside world.

I agree Putin invaded.

But would you say they've had very little help?

At the begining the Ukrainians defeated the invasion of Kiev with very little outside help. At the time everyone thought Putin would take it quickly but the initial invasion force he sent in that direction was destroyed by Ukraine using a combination of old soviet arms and some anti tank missles the UK had already given them.

Military aid started to arrive later.

@SunnyDayInFeb oh I thought you meant throughout. Yes I recall the expectation it would be swift and Ukraine mobilising and then others helping.

I very much feel for them. It's been horrendous. I also struggle with ongoing loss of life on all sides and can't see that it wouldn't just go on with more.

It's massively alarming isn't it. One meeting with Russia and he is already spouting Putin's agenda, blaming Ukraine for starting a war (by not just capitulating to Russia at the outset), blaming Ukraine for not stopping the war and now talking about poor approval ratings (obviously to push the agenda for elections which will install a pro-Moscow puppet).

This after one meeting. Like with Musk, a powerful man blows smoke up his arse and he is putty in their hands.

Yes I was addressing Trumps comments about how the war started. What I clearly remember seeing was a massive, unprovoked attack from Russia and Ukraine fighting off the initial onslaught whilst the outside world looked on making sympathetic noises and Biden offered Zelensky transport to leave.

Now this is being rewritten to Ukraine some how starting the war which is frankly ridiculous.

Fine that you want the war to end. Everyone wants the war to end and for people to stop being killed. But you must surely be able to see that the US are selling Ukraine out here. They are certainly not good faith negotiators going into bat on Ukraines behalf. Trump could be a spokesman for the Kremlin.

I thought I'd post this again because I've seen another post claiming x or y regarding how much various states contribute.
Maybe this graphic is incorrect ?

Military aid to Ukraine by NATO has started much earlier than 2022 - at the very least since 2014. Both, weapons and full training.

So it's about half the US and half Europe (the countries as well as the EU)

I think the big issue is that a lot of the weapons have come from the US. With the US turning towards Russia, Europe urgently needs to build up its own defense manufacturing capacity.

Sergei Lavrov is loving this. He can get back on a plane and carrying on with Putin's regressive agenda.

Perhaps but it certainly wasnt a very significant quantity. The most significant bit of kit they got was the UK giving them anti tank weapons. Not sure if this counts as Nato. I guess the UK is a member of Nato but I don't think it was organised by Nato.These anti tank weapons were significant in halting the initial advance.

Ukraine mainly used old soviet weapons and nearly ran out of shells a couple of months in. They started to get more outside help and transitioned to using modern weapons using a different shell size.

Fine that you want the war to end. Everyone wants the war to end and for people to stop being killed. But you must surely be able to see that the US are selling Ukraine out here.

Who is the 'you' in this?

Are you addressing this point to me?

I haven't said much on the approach. My main take is similar to a phrase by a commentator - we are seeing major geopolitical shifts now

I agree with that and it's a big deal, allies might mean something else re US, Russia and everyone else

Frankly if NATO had helped them properly in the first place Russia might never have invaded or at least would have been beaten back.

I seem to remember Trump was at least partly to blame for this in the first place. He refused to sell (not give) Ukraine arms unless Zelensky implicated Hunter Biden in a corruption case.

@tamade

I don’t agree that any other member of NATO is influential. Just for argument, which members do you think are influential?

Germany? Italy? The UK? If we're talking traditional Russian allies, Türkiye? Türkiye, though, issued a statement today supporting Ukraine. Erdogan himself said "Turkey supports the territorial integrity, sovereignty, and independence of Ukraine".

https://x.com/gerashchenkoen/status/1891861519983431932?s=61&t=3wYru9PP_J0h74BXKFXAfmw

I listened to what he said with my mouth hanging open.

Kompromat. Although trump doesn't appear to be ashamed of anything.

Ashamed of nothing, offended by everything. Fits right in with Putin.

@tamade As elections are prohibited in Ukraine during martial law, do you think Ukraine should break their constitution?

I'm also interested in the logistics of holding an election. When you have part of the electorate out of the country, part of the electorate at the front lines and part of the electorate under daily bombardment ( 'mostly the "russian speaking eastern Ukrainians " that the savages are trying to liberate but are rather inconveniently murdering instead

Indeed.

He's Putins love interest now. Trump will do anything for Putin including pretending Ukraine started the war when Russia invaded them.

Well if I were Türkiye I would very concerned by the US stance. For good reason

@MarsScarlet
@tamade
"Just for argument, which members do you think are influential?"

"Germany? Italy? The UK? "

Germany spends just 1.5% of GDP on defence. They currently have only 20 functioning helicopters:

ukdefencejournal.org.uk/only-20-out-of-152-german-tiger-and-nh90-helicopters-ready-for-action/

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43134896.amp

Italy only spends 1.6% and is little better:

thedefensepost.com/2024/04/08/italy-military-undersized/amp/

For years, as long as I can remember - the divide has been East/West and there has been this sort of comfort blanket feeling that whatever happens at least Europe and the US will be allies and stick together. Within the election of this absolute creep, we are now witnessing what feels like a start of a stark divide between Europe and the US, with the US seemingly capitulating to Russia and China.

Maybe this was always inevitable with the increasing power of Russia and China and the US are just the first to make the move.

It is horribly alarming though. I think Europe as a whole (not just EU) needs to start properly working together and cut out the bickering.