State school 6th forms oversubscribed

[LordGiveMeStrength]

AIBU to be concerned about the impact the new VAT on private schools will have on state school 6th forms?

Our local 6th form open days have been jam packed with so many year 11s moving from private schools.

Issues I see:

1. kids who have been at the local state secondary school since year 7 have been told their space in the 6th form is not guaranteed and if they don’t get as high GCSE results as other potential pupils they will not have a spot. The nearest private schools have amazing GCSE results so very likely to displace existing students to other state school options a far distance from their homes.
2. infrastructure - the local school is already heaving so accommodating a huge influx is not possible, buildings are already crumbling and it will take a long time before investment actually happens to improve the facilities.
3. false economy- currently kids in private schools don’t cost the government to be educated. Government’s plans are that money raised from VAT will pay for additional teachers (but I don’t see that happening immediately). If lots of private schools kids move to the state system not only will government not collect that VAT, but they will all be liable for educating pupils who previously were in the private sector. I believe the current cost from central government to educate in 6th form is £5k with additional payments for more academic subjects (eg further maths A level pupils will equal an additional £900 per pupil per year in the state schools). Apologies if these sums aren’t correct.

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/private-school-parents-vat-state-sixth-forms-3473062?srsltid=AfmBOopXOi5842QMq-qO1NqHGR9g9-4BOi6Gc0v_dlhBbFBTMmU5Prsi

Blimey this is dull

How do you know where all these yr11s jamming your open evenings currently go to school? Have you had the chance to chat to them all? Some pupils have always moved from private to state for 6th form and also vice versa.

Why read it then?

Not if you have a Y11 child.
Of you don’t, just scroll on.

Meh.

Round us loads of kids move from private to state 6th forms, always have.

And all the Open Days are always packed, always have been.

Isn't a low birth rate coming through, I thought there was an excess of sixth form places in many areas?

I used to work in a sixth form, we were desperate for numbers. Most kids went to college instead.
I guess it depends on where you live, what courses are offered, how many places they have for each course and overall perception of the sixth form v college.

Definitely a short sighted VAT policy. Many schools have minimum grades for 6th form and no automatic place. Some dc cannot do the academic A levels so always go elsewhere. That would be no change here. I doubt whole y11s at private schools are looking either. A handful no doubt and more than before. Of course vat was spiteful and the state will pick up the fall out snd maybe some displaced dc at the local comp. Grammars have increased 6th forms to take even more dc here and have for years due to movement from secondary schools and private schools.

Well yes, this was always going to be the obvious outcome. Add in those who have kids in nursery and for whom the VAT has been the final thing persuading them not to start private. I have several friends in this position - they are all buying next to the best primary school in the area, and in 5y or so will move next to the best secondary.

VAT on private schools was always going to increase inequality of access to the best state school, I'm not sure why this is a surprise?

I've had my Y11 days.

Open Evenings full of kids who want a look around but won't ever go there.

Most kids in the UK don't go private.
Of those who do, most will stay in the Indy sector, VAT or otherwise.

Most state schools give places to existing students providing that they meet the grades no matter who else applies.

It is very unlikely that whether your child gets into the sixth form will be affected by mythical hordes of VAT refugees.

Every day someone posts another variant of panic about school places.

It's dull. And I shall say so.

My sixth form would be delighted to get an influx of kids with great GCSE results. More kids = more funding. It doesn't appear to have had any visible impact on state schools round my way though.

Why are there 5 billion threads about VAT on MN again all of a sudden? Is something happening that they want to whip up a froth about it?

Not an expert in admissions criteria, but I'm fairly sure that state schools aren't allowed to select based on the students with the best GCSE results.

What they can do, is set minimum entry criteria to continue onto Post 16 courses. But that has been the case since ... well always.

If a current Year 11 student gets the required grades for Level 3 study, they will be able to go onto into sixth form. A private school student getting better grades won't influence that.

Sixth form open days are often packed. Private school students often move (or at least consider) moving to state at sixth form.

This must be a very localised issue. The proportion of kids in private education in Year 11 across the country is tiny and not all of them will move to state provision for 6th form.

Lots of places where I work and at neighbouring colleges . Are you referring to Surrey / Kent areas ?? when I went to a state Sixth Form I met lots of new people who’d moved from private schools and will always be the case .

Our local 6th form open days have been jam packed with so many year 11s moving from private schools

How do you know where all the kids attending the Open Days went to school? Can't have been that crowded if you had chance to go round and ask them!

The state 6th forms here have always had kids move from private. That's nothing new. Some local 6th forms are struggling for numbers so would benefit from this supposed "influx".

I can guarantee that if the sixth form college I work for suddenly has an influx of private school students with good GCSEs or even ok ones they will do everything they can to accommodate! And I doubt it would be at the expense of places more broadly either.

Round here teens look at 3-4 sixth forms so they won’t all go to the one you are looking at.

Biggest threat to private education is great state education. Demand better for everyone! In our county lots of kids go from private to state 6th form because we have a fantastic group of post 16 colleges. It does make teacher recruitment in schools a little trickier, because all the schools are 11-16, but it’s great for 6th form. It’s not competitive, you need the minimum grades to be successful on the course, plenty of support because of the scale of the college. Excellent results, including good progress. Great preparation for university. Selective school 6th forms are the issue here, not people deciding not to keep paying fees.

What else did you think was going to happen?

@LordGiveMeStrength

Of course there will be more private school pupils looking to switch at 6th form, as many parents at can no longer afford the fees. Many families are hanging on until natural transition points (11 and 16) to make the switch. 2010 was a high birth rate year, and those pupils will be in Y9/Y10 at the moment. The issue is likely to get worse over the next couple of years.

As schools are very much measured on their exam results, schools are likely to want to take those pupils with the highest GCSE grades, as they are more likely to perform well at A-Level. The great 6th forms may well become harder to get into.

I find it really interesting that all these privately school educated kids are from families that can't afford 20% extra. Surely lots must be able to and if you don't have an extra 20% contingency in the bank then it wasn't a wise financial decision as fees could have always gone up? This has been in the political cards for ages ?. Meanwhile people at state schools are apply long as per the admission criteria as they always have. I doubt at sixth form this will have e massive impact as kids scatter anyway.

A lot of private school families do not have several thousand pounds a year spare, on top of increases in the cost of living, mortgage rates and the increase in school fees following high inflation. Any contingency may well have been eaten up by these things.

Even where families could afford the VAT, the fees may now be at a level where they feel it's no longer worth it.

Where I live a LOT of private school students move for 6th form anyway. I don't think much will change.

I'm quite surprised that the school sixth form admissions rules don't prioritise their existing students,

Most round here do - so if a particular subject is very heavily oversubscribed the competition for the place (based on GCSEs or distance depending on the school) is within existing students first. The minimum PAN for external students is usually pretty small (12-20) and will only increase if there are insufficient numbers of internal applicants.

Probably worth lobbying the governors to change it if this isn't the case where you are.

It's not just a case of whether private school parents can afford it, for many, the extra 20% is making them not want to afford it. There comes a point where you decide it's not good value anymore. DS is in Y11 and we'd always assumed he'd carry on at private for 6th form, but the VAT encouraged us to go and look at our local state options, which we'd never done before. A couple of them were really very good, so it makes you question whether £25k a year in fees is actually getting you £25k a year of 'value'. Many Y11 parents are deciding it doesn't.