State school 6th forms oversubscribed

[LordGiveMeStrength]

AIBU to be concerned about the impact the new VAT on private schools will have on state school 6th forms?

Our local 6th form open days have been jam packed with so many year 11s moving from private schools.

Issues I see:

1. kids who have been at the local state secondary school since year 7 have been told their space in the 6th form is not guaranteed and if they don’t get as high GCSE results as other potential pupils they will not have a spot. The nearest private schools have amazing GCSE results so very likely to displace existing students to other state school options a far distance from their homes.
2. infrastructure - the local school is already heaving so accommodating a huge influx is not possible, buildings are already crumbling and it will take a long time before investment actually happens to improve the facilities.
3. false economy- currently kids in private schools don’t cost the government to be educated. Government’s plans are that money raised from VAT will pay for additional teachers (but I don’t see that happening immediately). If lots of private schools kids move to the state system not only will government not collect that VAT, but they will all be liable for educating pupils who previously were in the private sector. I believe the current cost from central government to educate in 6th form is £5k with additional payments for more academic subjects (eg further maths A level pupils will equal an additional £900 per pupil per year in the state schools). Apologies if these sums aren’t correct.

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/private-school-parents-vat-state-sixth-forms-3473062?srsltid=AfmBOopXOi5842QMq-qO1NqHGR9g9-4BOi6Gc0v_dlhBbFBTMmU5Prsi

You make a good point. None of the private schools in my town have sixth forms. One experimented but couldn’t compete against: 2 grammars, 1 comp with sixth form, and 2 FE colleges. They simply couldn’t offer enough to compete.

Again this seems odd to me. Our 6th Form timetabling is based on the options made at application time (externals have already applied, internals are doing so at the moment). Results day spaces are then filled on a first come first served basis if they meet grades for entry and we have space in their subject choices. Other externals only have to come with their results to confirm. Of course as a grammar with a grade 7 requirement to do a subject at A Level there’s not really any pressure there.

Exactly we were told our year 11s a boom year but it’s tails off after that. So if it’s ok for the next two years the situation will only improve from then on.

There are also exciting new colleges doing courses - several friends kids have gone off to do media / niche courses which lead straight to the jobs they want. The strangle hold of graduates on the good jobs is waning. It’s all about apprenticeships now. Things are different to when we were at that stage.

Apprenticeships have really changed over the last few years and many of the top firms are now offering them.
We had a student turn down a place at Cambridge for Law last year as he had an apprenticeship offer from one of the best firms.

I remember the first student we sent on an apprenticeship (to Rolls Royce) and how many teachers were quite snobby about that - they’ve changed their tune now!

Why would they? They want to fill Alevels courses. At 16 many kids want more freedom and larger FE colleges. Our local FE college has anlways been popular with the pre private sector. I suspect some want breathing space and the courses they want at Alevel. Our outstanding grammar battles to keep students. Entry requirements aren’t that high and it has even started taking boys to keep courses running. It offers a limited selection of courses. Making the bar too high is a massive risk. Start to not be able to run courses from an already limited list and young people will look elsewhere. At 16 they are 2 years away from uni which they decide on and fund themselves.

This really is a wishful thinking thread. There isn’t going to be a problem.

The below was in reply to Gogogo12345
suggesting entry requirements could be raised.

Your example sounds like a one off anomaly though.
My DC's school has a similar process for signing up for A Level, but they also make a point of telling their own students that they should sign up for sixth form as soon as they have received their GCSE results and that otherwise they can't guarantee choice of courses. Consequently most existing students are signed up before external ones have a chance and those that aren't are aware they run the risk of missing out on preferred courses.

In the example you give, I assume the school will give similar advice this year, and existing students (who satisfy entry criteria) who want places will get them.
Frankly, schools want their sixth form places filled asap after results day, they don't still want to be left with too many empty spaces come September. And students shouldn't be dithering on results day and leaving sixth form plans for days/weeks anyway, unless their results are hugely out of line wih expectations - they should know what they want to sign up for, and what Plan B (slightly missed grades) might look like.

Our local 6th forms have always prioritised local state schools in their application processes. It leads to a nasty shock for some private school parents, as our state 6th forms are some of the top in the country.

Yes that does sound like an anomaly. Our grammars have the same system as yours and the poster below.

This

State schools are not there to look better.
They are there to teach children from the local area.

Over a third of my daughter's year have given notice for sixth form and I know lots more who are planning to. It's usually under 10%. They are having to run a 2nd round of 6th form applications.

Our local private school doesn't have a sixth form and neither do a few of the local secondaries.

Entrance to any school's sixth form around here has always been competitive. My DS went to one of the local grammar and entry to the sixth form has never been guaranteed. Many of his friends had to leave and go somewhere with lower entry requirements.

My DD went to the private school and left last year and is now at one of the local colleges. Her year group from school are now spread around the local colleges and sixth forms. Only a tiny minority went on to a private sixth form ( they are a fair distance away, have quite high entrance criteria and the fees are much higher)

More like £70k in London for 2y of sixth form.

Too late for that if you did gcses at a private school

I don't think it's a bad thing that sixth forms are setting minimum grade requirements to take a-levels. Tbh i think most of them don't set the minimum high enough.

A student achieving 5 grade 6 GCSE's is very unlikely to go to secure decent grade A-levels.

So many kids think getting 5's and 6's and thus enough to get into 6th form means they'll do fine at a-levels and go off to uni. The reality is with 5's and 6's they'll likely get c's and d's at A-level which won't leave them with a lot of choices of uni places as since a* grades at a-level tariff requirements have increased accordingly

@SpanThatWorld
Schools want the best results possible, and to appear as high as possible in the league tables.

No, it’s really common for PS pupils to move to state after GCSE, especially to top performing schools and colleges where there’s a wider range and combination of subjects and teachers who specialize just in A level. My DD went to a large college which was stuffed full of students from a top public school.

I am well aware of the context in which schools are operating.

But the purpose of state schools is to educate the local community and that is the motivation behind most of the schools that I have been involved with.

So there was no problem when 16-18 became compulsory for ALL children, but there's now a massive problem affecting a tiny proportion of the 6% of kids in private education.

What's really disappointing is the total lack of logic and critical thinking skills in presenting these arguments.

I agree that a lot of university tariff requirements are very high now.

Interestingly a lot of degree apprentiships or level 4 apprentiships seem to ask for 3 Bs or B, B,C. But they have so many hoops to jump through so I dont know who actually gets them.

It is a bit bonkers to end up in a situation where a qualification isn't worth having unless you can get the higher grades. A C in particular should be seen as a solid pass that let's you on to do other things.

VAT refugees 😂

Just go to a Sixth Form College instead, not a school with an "add on". They offer a far better provision al round.

Ours is top performing in the country but you can get in with grade 5/6s in the subjects you want to study for A level. It’s non selective that way. Because it’s a STATE 6th form, and takes from the local secondaries. And some private pupils do go. But they don’t care if you got 10x 8/9s.
The main criteria is that you prove you want to be there and can study independently.
Their future plan - if they get hugely oversubscribed- is to ONLY accept state educated pupils who meet the criteria ( post code is also used as one of the criteria so keeps it to children within the county)

It’s a fantastic 6th form, and as one should be - show them you ca study the a levels, show them you’re willing to try your best.
They don’t care about all the rest of it, your extra curriculars are only relevant if they’re relevant to the subjects chosen.

‘I don't think it's a bad thing that sixth forms are setting minimum grade requirements to take a-levels. Tbh i think most of them don't set the minimum high enough.’

And I think it is fantastic that they do. No-one’s future should be decided by something they did at 15/16 and many children, bright and able children, don’t get high grades in every subject for many reasons.

At our excellent 6th form - this is recognised and the students there thrive with results that are in the top in the U.K.