To think this isn’t cliquey?

[TheIvyRestaurant]

I have a son in year 3, he started in reception class just after lockdown, and we had moved across the country as a family as well to a place where I (a massive extrovert) knew nobody and did a WFH job so was eager to make friends.

The other mums were very sociable and one mum would set up a mums WhatsApp group and arranged regular mums nights out, about 4 a year, and often to welcome new mums who gradually joined. These were very inclusive, and would be places where people could get just a drink or they could eat as well and stay as long as they pleased.

As time went on the numbers dwindled, and the same people would initially say yes and then cancel last minute. Or they’d say yes and just not turn up which is quite embarrassing when a table has been booked. Someone would normally follow up with them - sometimes they’d reply sometimes they wouldn’t! And they’d do it again the next time.

It became clear that just 6 of us consistently turned up to these nights. By year 2 the 6 of us became close friends and we set up a separate WhatsApp group and arranged nights out, nights/days in, cinema trips, the occasional play date etc. We also chat at pick up and drop off, because we’re friends.

the whole class night out invotations still go out but less frequently - only one this academic year at Christmas, as just fewer people seem to want to join.

The 6 of us had a night out on Saturday and spotted another mum with her DH in a restaurant. This mum hasn’t been on a mum’s night out since reception year, and has cancelled a couple of times on the day for other nights out (relevant) we all said hello but as none of us are her friend we didn’t stop to chat.

My friend who organises the nights out (who’s in the group of six) put on the whole mums group chat yesterday about a potential night out in April. The mum we saw on Saturday replied “Is this for everyone or just the clique?”. When my friend asked her what she meant she said there is a clique that excludes people from social gatherings and also at pick up and drop off as well.

Now We are in our 4th year of schooling these kids, and personally think it’s fine to not shout “roll up roll up come for a chat” in the playground or in ie every last person to every single gathering a few of us have. It’s fine to have made friends, and it seems the people who’ve made friends are the ones who’ve made the effort.

This mum NEVER approaches us to say hello, and has never made a real effort since reception. I don’t think it’s fair to say we are a clique when actually we are just friends who have consistently made the effort with each other.

AIBU to think our group of six have the right to hang out without inviting everyone in the class because a friendship has been formed separately as adults, rather than only being linked through our children?

Well I stand corrected about the word ' spectating". Never heard it used as a verb that way, but I was wrong.
I stand by the rest of my post.
If you are too wet to join in group convos or attend a social, it's not anyone's job to hold your hand. Unless they are paid to do it.

I think some people have weird ideas about group dynamics. When you are out with a larger group of 10 or more people, in any group I have been in, there are multiple conversations going on, it's not one single conversation with a couple of people dominating and others sitting there meekly waiting for their chance to chip in. If there's someone along the table being loud and annoying, then you turn to the person next to you or across the table and speak to them. Surely?

Why should I leave the WhatsApp group? I’ve done nothing wrong and it’s useful to stay in

Then you need to accept some in that group have an opinion of you that you don't like. Many people still manage to remember to bring £1 to school without a WhatsApp group, but if it's useful to you, stay there and expect people to post stuff about you.

So I should just persist speaking to people who clearly aren’t interested in having a conversation? Thats not friendly that’s creepy

Nope. But writing them off as not being bothered to make an effort is not being friendly. Maybe it is something about how you approach them, maybe they are having a bad day, maybe they're listeners instead of talkers, maybe you aren't great at reading people, there are dozens of reasons why this interaction isn't what you expected it to be. That's ok and you can react how you want to, but judging them isn't being friendly.

FFS be a grown up and join in - and then don’t moan if you don’t wanna go but others do!

"I'm anything but unfriendly"

I am a grown up. I manage social situations fine. I also don't moan if I don't want to go.

I'm giving you the insight of someone who was on the other end of this situation, letting you know one reason numbers might dwindle over time, and your response is to insult me. You have come out swinging, on the defensive, then turned it to attacking. If you can't see why you are contributing to the problem, things will remain the same.

Ask yourself this. If you are so sure, so certain you are doing nothing wrong, and this other mum is just being entirely unreasonable, why would it bother you that she said you were in a clique? Just own it and move on. A simple response of "it's a whole group invite" will suffice. Why do you care so much what she thinks? You think you are in the right so what's the problem? Or, has she hit on something that deep down you are bothered about? Only you know the answer to that. Use that answer to shape your response.

We have different groups of parents who are friends with each other. It’s not that weird? Surely that’s a very normal way of doing things - just like kids aren’t best friends with everyone they have friendship groups

This thread has kept me very entertained wasted time when I should be working!

OP YADNBU, of course friendships form naturally and no one owes anyone anything.

My two cents though - why did another mum chime in and say she’d noticed there’s a clique? What were the other responses on the group? And how was it left?! My school WhatsApp group is dull and I’d love a bit of drama like this.

Also, you haven’t come across very well towards the end of the thread, so perhaps you are in fact unapproachable, bullish and annoying, so people avoid your nights out. But that might be completely incorrect.

Finally, what would you think if, say 2 or 3 of your group of 6 met up without you?

If you are too wet to join in group convos or attend a social, it's not anyone's job to hold your hand. Unless they are paid to do it.

Hang on, weren't you the one complaining that MN hates extroverts? And you think labelling people who aren't as "wet" has nothing to do with that?

I'm not too "wet" to attend a social. I choose not to join some social situations because I don't enjoy them. I join in a group conversation where I have something to add to it. Spending an evening talking about my child's achievements isn't my bag. I don't have stories about that time we were so drunk we fell down the stairs. Listening to a group complaining about other children or teaching staff who have been nothing but kind to me, isn't something I want to join in with. And even when others did try to do that, they would respond with silence and start off all over again.

I have no issue with anyone who enjoys that kind of thing, fair play to them, those are their experiences. If they have a problem with the fact that people prefer not to sit and watch them doing that, that's on them.

Thats not a clique...thats 6 friends having a night out together and a catch up in the play ground.
When I picked my son up from school I stood with people I knew and chatted to them for five minutes.If someone wanted to come over and join in the conversation then that would be fine also.

Ignore the sarcastic comment.

If you dont want to attend a social, don't
That's not wet or even unusual. Each to her own.

But if you then complain about people making friends at the social and doing stuff as a smaller group, afraid I do consider you wet. That is what OP is talking about.

I guess I'm in several cliques then.
There are a few ex colleagues that I socialise with but we don't invite the entire department.
There are people from my hobby that I see independently without involving the whole club.
I'm still in touch with a few parents of my DC's primary school friends even though our offspring are now at University, but we don't call every parent who had a kid in their class if we're meeting up.
So I suppose they're my cliques, or as I prefer to call them, friends.
We all come into contact with different groups of people throughout our lives. Some of them will be no more than transient acquaintances, some will become lifelong friends and some will be somewhere in between.
I know that there are other groups of friends from my workplace/sports club etc that don't include me. But we're all grown ups and nobody makes a fuss. Not being invited to "official" events like a work Christmas Do or club end of season party would be hurtful and unfair - they are events that are intended for the whole group. But people are allowed to have personal friendships within groups and subgroups tend to form naturally over time. There's nothing wrong with that and it sounds like some of your wider group are being unreasonable OP. I'd just ignore it though - don't feed any drama. If you were using the "big" WhatsApp group to arrange meet ups for just a few then they'd have a point but you're not, you've developed some closer friends and communicate with them independently. You're entitled to see your friends separately.

I am in several cliques too. With friends.

For the next all class invitation I'd say "we have to pay a deposit, it will be booked on x-date, on y-date [x plus 2 days] we'll book for everyone who has paid"

Then when it's booked confirm in the WA group how many are booked in.

When it happens post photos "so great to have a night out".

Rinse and repeat

They only don’t invite people to every gathering because people were not attending or cancelling. They still send invites to separate gatherings for the larger group which means they are not a clique (clique meaning - a small close-knit group of people who do not readily allow others to join them)

So you would book a table for 25 people every time despite knowing that only 6 people are reliably going to show up?

Then you need to accept some in that group have an opinion of you that you don't like. Many people still manage to remember to bring £1 to school without a WhatsApp group, but if it's useful to you, stay there and expect people to post stuff about you.

I wouldn’t mind people posting stuff as long as it’s not baseless. Can I just go in and call people dickheads be side “well that’s my opinion and you have to lump it if you wanna be here”

But writing them off as not being bothered to make an effort is not being friendly.

Dont you think its safe to conclude that people who come to no social meetings and don’t speak in the playground are people who are interested in making the effort (which is absolutely fine)

I'm giving you the insight of someone who was on the other end of this situation

You were on the other end of not making an effort? And what did you do to include yourself or did you just sit around expecting others to put the hard work in?

Ask yourself this. If you are so sure, so certain you are doing nothing wrong, and this other mum is just being entirely unreasonable, why would it bother you that she said you were in a clique?

Because I don’t like being the butt of false accusations.

I don’t have to be sweet and pleasant 100% of the time and I’m sure we aren’t all the same on MN than we are IRL.

Also there’s no tone is writing

one person who chimed in agreeing is friends the the mum who made the original comment, the other has literally never so much as turned up to a social event.

The rest has been sarcastic comments and denials there is a clique and general replies for the night out.

Only me and my friend who organises the nights out replied of the 6 of us friends but I’ve largely left it

I wouldn’t mind people posting stuff as long as it’s not baseless. Can I just go in and call people dickheads be side “well that’s my opinion and you have to lump it if you wanna be here”

Sure you can. That's essentially what you're claiming this woman has done. It wouldn't do you any favours and people would probably hate you for it, but there's nothing to stop you. The only difference is, they might not see it as baseless.

Dont you think its safe to conclude that people who come to no social meetings and don’t speak in the playground are people who are interested in making the effort (which is absolutely fine)

Of course it is. But to be sneering about it, which is how you've come across, isn't.

You were on the other end of not making an effort? And what did you do to include yourself or did you just sit around expecting others to put the hard work in?

This is what I mean about being sneery. You see it as something negative I did when in fact it was anything but. I was invited as a whole group invite, I went along to a few of them at first because I thought it would be fun to meet up with them, and because some of their children were friends with my child. I found it was not fun, I had little in common with a lot of them, and I'd much rather have smaller conversations with one or two of the mums who I had shared interests with and who happened to live nearby. These groups made it impossible to do that because they were overwhelmingly commandeered by this particular cliquey group. So, I stopped going. I didn't complain about it. I didn't complain or judge them for being who they were and doing what they did, it just wasn't something I enjoyed. You seem to have a problem with that. I can understand why it would annoy you that someone on your group had said something you don't think is fair, but all I'm saying is, I can see how they might have come to that conclusion, given what I experienced. That particular person maybe really wants to come along to things but doesn't because they are experiencing the same thing I did. I dare say the group of mums I experienced, thought it was a great time and they can't understand why others didn't.

Because I don’t like being the butt of false accusations

It's not like they are accusing you of treason or kicking puppies. They think you are part of a clique, so what? You have already said you don't care if people "don't bother" to engage and you don't like people who "expect others to put the hard work in", you've judged them for their non activity, so what does it matter if they, in turn think you should be making more of an effort? You clearly think you've done enough, what is it about these people that you crave their acceptance and approval? Be happy with how you are and what you've done.

Jeez this thread is weird.

Woman upset because friends talk to each other at dinner shocker.

Maybe OP or Organiser of a general evening should have name badges and a quiz so everyone was equally involved, perhaps wearing a clown suit at the same time as their unpaid role was apparently to act as group facilitator making sure that everyone can speak, but obviously not forcing anyone shy to do so because that would be wrong as well.

Everyone is allowed to find their own tribe, or not if they don't choose to. However don't then castigate people who do make an effort. I feel some people would prefer that the OP had made no friends.

It's like Stuff/Rubbish/Shit all over again

I have to put away my Stuff
You have to put away your Rubbish
They have to put away their Shit

I have Friends
You have a Friendship Group
They have a Clique

A clique is a friendship group you don't think you can join and resent, as far as I can make out. Whether or not that is based on reality, personal insecurity or assumption.

You’re allowed to do that though, they’re a friendship group. I absolutely hate all this mum school gate bollocks. Hang out with who you want to, don’t hang out with people you don’t want to. Nobody owes anybody anything.

You won’t admit it to yourself - but you are a clique. It was once a large inclusive group, now there’s 6 of you. I understand your reasoning, but others obviously don’t see it like that. This woman has made it clear she’s upset so I think the kind thing to do would be to apologise, explain you didn’t like to keep pestering people and she herself politely declined/ cancelled the last few times, so you stopped asking. However of course the invite is open to anyone who would like to join! Maybe go say hi to her next time in the playground? At least then you have done the right/ kind thing.

@TheIvyRestaurant definitely not a clique. Just a group of mums that became friends, you can't be blamed for people who were invited and said yes then cancelled or did not turn up. If that happens too often yiu stop inviting. You have every right to organise a class night out and also have social events for your own friends group. Me personally would no longer organise class social events, just enjoy your own friends.

Your life must be exhausting from all the extra apologising and bending over backwards trying to make up for any and all perceived offence you might've caused.

I won’t apologise for thins I’m not sorry for. It’s always clear the whole class nights out are for everyone and anyone.

It’s only a smaller group because the 6 of us made an effort and got on.

Don’t you dare apologise op! For sodding what?! She needs to over herself start her own clique if she’s that bothered. You could call any group of friends a clique.

Bec you sound absolutely bonkers. Do you go over to strangers in a pub apologise that you’re having fun with your mates and invite randoms to join you?!

Also the invite is not open any more they’ve got a good vibe going with their six she’s missed the boat there.

Some people don’t realise that in order to be included you have to make an effort.

Obviously if a few people always turn up to these things, and others never do, they will miss out on an opportunity to make friends.