For stopping a man taking his daughter in swimming pool changing room?

[Anotsolittlemermaid]

I am a regular user but changed name for this as I’ve spoken to a few people about it so it could be outing. I apologise it’s quite a long post but couldn’t cut it much shorter as context is needed.

I have a monthly subscription to a gym with a swimming pool that’s part of a hotel, on a Wednesday there is women’s aqua aerobics from 7-8 then adult only time from 8pm till 10pm.

Yesterday evening I got to the pool at about 8.15 after aqua aerobics and there was a man who was just arriving at the pool with his young daughter who was about 4/5.

He was being quite annoying letting her disrupt people by jumping in where people were swimming, getting in the path of other swimmers, throwing floats used for aqua across the pool and he was picking her up and throwing her.
The little girl was shrieking and screaming and a few people gave annoyed looks over at him but he carried on getting in everyone’s way.

In the end after about 20 minutes a member of staff came over and asked the man to leave the pool as children’s hours had finished, he argued a bit saying he was trying to tire his daughter out so she would sleep but the staff member was firm and said there had been two sessions of children’s hours for 2 hours at a time earlier in the day that he had been welcome to use but people who wanted to swim properly deliberately avoided them and came later.

The women’s changing room was still busy after aqua and it was mostly women swimming in the pool who had stayed after aqua to continue swimming. The changing rooms are right next to the pool so you can hear when people are in them. The men’s seemed empty but the man and his daughter were also hotel guests so he could have wrapped a towel around her and gone back to the room. He had towels and a hotel robe for himself with him.

When he got out of the pool he put the robe on but took his daughter by the hand and walked towards the women’s changing room obviously intending to go in.

The changing room is open plan with only one cubicle, it had 8 showers, 4 are in cubicles but the other 4 are open, when I had undressed before swimming the changing room had been busy with lots of women using the showers and changing after aqua, there were obviously a few women still in there as I could hear chatting and the hairdryer going.

I had been swimming lengths at the edge of the pool opposite the changing room entrance so when I saw him heading to the women’s I called out to him “sorry but that’s the ladies and it’s busy, you can take your daughter to the men’s I’m sure it’s empty or can you not just put your towel around her and go to your room?”

The man glared at me and said he wasn’t taking his daughter into a room where men might be undressing and he had taken her into changing rooms before where no one had ever had a problem.

I said it was more likely they did have a problem but didn’t feel comfortable saying so, I was getting angry at this point so I said I’d go and get the member of staff to see what he said.

The man obviously knew the staff member wasn’t going to approve this and started ranting about how awful it was that first his daughter had been asked to leave the pool and now he couldn’t even get her dry and dressed again because of busy bodies sticking their oar in. Another women who was swimming and had overheard backed me up that it was completely inappropriate and no one over 8 is allowed in the opposite sex changing room. The man wasn’t happy but wrapped his daughter in the towel and took her his hotel room as I’d suggested. As he was wearing the robe I have no idea if he had planned to use the women’s changing room to shower and get changed himself or not.

I hate confrontation but the other women thanked me for saying something, I spoke to the staff member when I’d finished my swim and he agreed that the man should have used the men’s changing room where there was a free cubicle. He said he’d been cheeky enough bringing his daughter during adult hours when he’d been told earlier he wouldn’t be allowed when he’d asked about it.

I assumed most people would agree with me but my friend said I was completely out of order, she said the little girl was the one who was important and it was much safer and more appropriate for her to get changed in the ladies, she said most mums would be understanding about a father bringing his daughter in and could have got changed under a towel, when I mentioned he had also been in the pool and was possibly planning on getting undressed himself she said “well no one has to look if they don’t want to”
I didn’t want to keep discussing it with her as we had argued before years ago about her bringing her 11 year old son and nephews into ladies changing rooms and I realised she was the wrong person to mention it to.

I also mentioned it to DP and he said that I was right to stop the man going in the ladies but he equally feels uncomfortable when men bring their daughters in, he also swims and said the previous week a little girl had been running naked round the changing room whilst her dad was looking at his phone and he would never allow his daughter to do that as you just don’t know what other men are thinking.

There are no family changing rooms as it’s not really a kids pool with it being attached to a gym and it’s mainly set up for members comfort. The majority of people who bring kids are hotel guests who have rooms.

I don’t feel IABU really but after hearing my friend and DP’s opinion I just wondered what others thought about it. Was I wrong to suggest the man takes his daughter into the men’s changing room? On this occasion a cubicle was free but if it hadn’t been then do some people really think that women should be expected to get showered and undressed in front of a man when he could take her into the mens changing room?
I’m just interested in others thoughts.

There is also a disabled changing room but only one and in my opinion it’s wrong to take that over if you don’t have a disability.

I can't be bothered. This thread has become goady, hysterical and unpleasant. I'm off.

😂😂 ok

You've got it wrong about my upbringing, there was no taboo instilled. But as a sensitive child at that age I'd already have been feeling overstimulated by being in an unfamiliar place full of noise and strangers. Add to that seeing parts of said men on display that I didn't even know existed, and yes, the levels of strangeness would most likely have been too much. Nothing to do with intrinsic fear of bodies, everything to do with finding new sights and situations hard.

Fair dos. As OP described it as a gym with a swimming pool I'd assumed it was one changing room for both facilities, but I could be wrong.

I’ve just gone and scrolled all the way back and this is a lie.
It was not in response to someone saying he was there with the intention of raping someone.

This is what was ACTUALLY written

• "Grown men leer, little girls don't. We all know how awful it is to be leered at. Even if there's no opportunity for the man to escalate to rape this time, the leer is a gestural reminder that woman are the rapeable class, the fuckable class, the prey. It's a threat of what he'd do if the situation allowed it.
• Fred West didn't let the presence of his daughters stop him.
• One woman has to be the slowest, the last to leave. What if he is still there when she's the only one left?”

Then you misunderstand the definition of predator. Which sums things up quite nicely.

But then you’d have been the same in a new supermarket, shopping centre or cinema then - so not really to do with all those swinging penises?

Do you think women need safe spaces away from males?

Why?

Yes I do. To give women dignity as well as safety (and the same for men in their own spaces). I don’t think female only spaces are needed because all men are potentially predators/rapists. Which is what many people on here are suggesting. Which is both ridiculous and reductive.

Why are single sex spaces for “safety” if you don’t believe any man could be a threat to them?

How can you tell the predatory ones from the others?

Why are you deliberately goading people would be a better question.

This thread is lilting from one crazy extreme to the other.

Why does discussing the importance of and reasoning for women’s safe spaces feel like “goading” to you?

I really don't mind if men want to bring their daughters into the ladies toilets etc., as long as they announce themselves and are considerate if anyone asks them to wait. But I would absolutely draw a line at having a man in the communal changing rooms where I would expect women to be in various levels of undress.

Appreciate that's a nightmare for fathers and daughters. I would assume he would take her into the men's cubicle area.

It's rather simple. Women and men as well need safe spaces away from each other for either safety or privacy and dignity. Small children that are in no way a physical threat and that are unaware of the connotations/implications of gender differences or their significance are a different matter.

You cannot simultaneously say that women need safe spaces away from ALL men because of safety reasons and dispute the fact that all men pose a potential risk to women.

I suppose I'd add that if men are allowed in women's changing rooms, and vice versa, what's the point in HAVING gendered changing rooms? And yes, I'm generally happy to use neutral toilets as they are separate and locked cubicles, usually separate rooms entirely. I don't have my naked body out in the sinks part of the shared toilets.

Any man could be a threat to women if he CHOSE to be, I'm sure, simply because men are bigger and stronger than women on average but thankfully most wouldn't be. However, they're still separated regardless and for privacy as well. Now, a woman isn't a physical threat to a man but she could still infringe on his privacy so this why opposite sex adults are separated.

I’ve been too busy to come back to this post but I’ve just had a chance to revisit and I was surprised to see so many responses but have tried to read through as many I can.

It’s good to see the majority of people agree with me, as I said in my OP I’ve discussed this with a few people which is why I name changed, the only person who disagreed with my decision was my friend and she thought I was completely out of order.

My friend shares the same opinion I’ve seen a few times on this thread that the little girl comes first and other women should have been more understanding and just tolerated the man’s presence and got dressed discreetly.

We have argued in the past before about this, her son and nephews are adults now but she insisted on taking them into women’s changing rooms until they were in year 7. I have never been swimming with her and the boys so I don’t know how other women in the changing room reacted but she always said the boys safety came first and that was all that mattered. We agreed to disagree because we were both getting angry, the boys were all capable of getting dressed independently but her sister also agreed she didn’t want her sons going in the men’s changing room.

I brought up what happened with my friend thinking her opinion might have changed, she was very overprotective when her kids were little but she’s mellowed out as they have got older and has admitted she could have been more relaxed about some things.
She knows I’ve been assaulted by a man in the past and how vulnerable I’d have felt if the man had come in when I was changing and that’s why I didn’t want other women to feel the same, she stills holds her previous views though.

I posted after we had the conversation because I didn’t want to keep discussing it with my friend and risk another argument over it but I was interested in other peoples opinions. I felt strongly about it but that’s likely because of my past experiences with men, another point I should have mentioned in my OP is that I’m childfree but I didn’t want that to influence the post with comments similar to my friends about not being able to understand as I don’t have kids, it feels relevant to mention now as to why I posted.
At times it feels like when you don’t have children your feelings aren’t seen as a priority, I did see some comments mentioning this.

I have been back to the gym when the manager was on duty I managed to have a brief chat about what happened.
The manager said the rules are clear with no one over 8 allowed in the opposite sex changing rooms, she said the changing rooms and environment in the pool are completely different during children’s hours and that’s one reason they have them.
The man had brought his little girl the other night despite knowing the pool timetable then was stopped from entering with her after children’s hours finished.
He had then waited until the staff member on duty had left the reception desk and gone into the gym area (there is CCTV of the pool at the reception desk but it can be viewed from the gym) and accessed the pool through the women’s changing rooms with his daughter that were empty with the aqua class on.

After he was asked by staff to leave and I confronted him he had gone up to his room with his daughter but returned to complain the next day, he felt as he had booked the hotel with access to the pool he felt he should have been able to use it when he wanted.
His complaint wasn’t taken seriously and he was told by that he shouldn’t have tried to enter the ladies changing rooms and the rules were clear.

I have been going to the gym/pool for 15 years so know the staff very well.
I wanted to raise it to firstly thank them for sticking to the rules and secondly ask about how any similar incidents might be handled in future, that’s why I was given a full explanation.

I haven’t been swimming today as it’s children’s hours all day today and tomorrow with just one lane to book (the amount of detail about the gym in this post makes me think any other members reading it might recognise it!) and despite paying an expensive monthly membership I respect the rules and visit at suitable times, if this man had done the same then maybe none of this would have happened.

It’s been interesting but reassuring to read everyone’s responses, I have tried hard to see the point of the people who think I ABU but to be honest I’m struggling. The man had obviously decided he was going to do what suited him but I do understand the frustration around the lack of family facilities in other places, if it had been a leisure centre open to the public then I would especially see the frustration but this is a small pool attached to a gym with limited children’s hours, it’s more aimed towards adult use.
There isn’t space to put in extra changing room facilities and you have to request a key for disabled changing which means that if you don’t wish to send your child alone into the opposite sex changing room you have the option of drying off at the poolside (there is also a shower to use after the steam room) and going to your room to get dressed.

I think it’s important that women advocate and support each other and that can be over the smallest of issues, if we constantly make allowances for men that are to our detriment then where does it end?
I absolutely cared about the little girls safety but she was with her father whose duty it was to protect her and keep her safe. It wasn’t fair to make a group of women in a vulnerable position accommodate him when he had other options with no risk to his daughter.

Not if he's not disabled. Please, stop diluting accessible spaces. It's really inappropriate and shouldn't be mooted as an option.

Pools round here are very strict on no over 8s in the wrong changing room rule, my older daughter's swim school sends regular e-mail reminders but that is only because older boys are following their mums into the ladies, a grown man has never attempted to get in as far as I know. DH takes the DDs in the mens, in fact at our swimming lessons at at a hotel the toddlers just change poolside in front of all the pool users.

There is a sense of hysteria. It's not Brass Eye. I don't really understand why a 10-12 child can't quickly get undressed alone.

There are many reasons for separate charge spaces, it’s not a case of having to keep men out in case they are planning to rape a woman.

I have been sexually assaulted, I have also (as I imagine most women have) suffered unwanted comments, advances and harassment.
I am very wary of men and as a pp said if he had entered the changing room when I was changing I’d have panicked and been extremely distressed, despite the actual risk being small my body perceives it differently and I get flooded with adrenaline and go into panic mode - it’s likely what has made this into an issue for me and prompted me to post.

There are women with mastectomy scars or other scars or they don’t wish to reveal their bodies in front of an unknown man.

Some women are prohibited from religion from sharing spaces with men, this would be traumatic for them.

There are many more reasons but I’ve listed these because of the women I’ve come across in the 15 years I’ve used this gym, I know that if they were present it would have been a huge issue for them if the man had entered the changing room.

Using the worst case scenario in an argument takes away from the other issues because people focus on the likelihood of it happening. It doesn’t make it impossible but it also shouldn’t deter focus from the other reasons about why we need separate spaces, it’s for privacy and dignity and the desire to feel safe - surely not a big ask?

Where he did, in his hotel room.

Yes, of course safeguarding is important. But I don't understand why people think men's changing rooms are hotbeds of paedophilia. I understand from a practical point of view why little kids need assistance but an eight-year-old can cope. I think we'll have to leave this because it's just not a mindset I have.

I’ve never experienced an adult man attempting it before the other night. I’ve come across the same as you with older boys in changing rooms but not at the gym in my OP.

Years ago I went to a different gym and a two women came in with older boys who were about 10, they were busy chatting and didn’t notice the boys were looking round at the women changing and nudging each other and whispering.
I felt really uncomfortable but was young and didn’t say anything, I didn’t shower and just quickly got dressed and left.

It was after this that I talked about it with my best friend (same friend as in my OP) and she told me that she takes her sons and nephews when she has them into the ladies charging rooms when she’s swimming.
We had a heated discussion and almost fell out over it, we have avoided mentioning anything similar till I brought up what happened the other night.

The only way around this is to respect any swimming pool rules around age restrictions. If they don’t have an age limit of 8 and above then I won’t visit that pool.
If a mother of boys disagrees with it then they also have that option.

At the time I was unaware of any age limits at that gym so I switched to the one I’m at now.