A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

[SernieBanders]

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/#:~:text=MtF%20transitioners%20were%20over%206,general%20or%20for%20violent%20offending.

The document summarises evidence submitted to the UK Parliament regarding the relationship between transgender identities and criminal offending, particularly in relation to male-to-female (MtF) individuals. It highlights that MtF transitioners exhibit a rate of criminal offending, including violent offending, over six times higher than that of the female population. Their rates of offending are comparable to males, even after transitioning.
Men are male.

It's weird that people think that surgeries magically make people the opposition sex isn't it? In what world does a magic penis suddenly get transferred on to a woman to make her a man? Where do these magic penises come from? The magic fully functioning penis tree.
And the wound that is now a magic vagina, just like the real thing. Nothing to see here! Except most TW don't go through with the whole thing. Especially the ones who like to have breasts and a penis which has is its own very popular category in porn.

Sexual assault and sexual harassment include far more than rape.

Figures from surveys vary - anywhere from 86% to 97% of women say they have been sexually harassed.

The perpetrators are always male. To the point where much media coverage doesn't even mention that fact - it's taken for granted.

I can't imagine the cost of all this I assume but hope it's not NHS funded.

Just to be clear if you were raped and asked the police that the internal examinatiom be carried out by a woman.

And this person is a trained medic,
▪︎ who knows they need your consent to insert body parts and objects into your body, and
▪︎ knows the difference between male and female, and
▪︎ knows they will give evidence in a trial where someone (A) inserted body parts or objects into your body.

A male doctor (B) who has his testie removed, is clean shaven, and meets your standard of beauty for a female face/body, falls within your definition of female so is a woman medic.

Subsequent to the exam person A has raped you but person B has not?

And yet . . . 🙄🙄

Including a male doctor demanding a woman get undressed in front of him in a changing room for women and reporting her for not complying.

If women realised how much depraved porn is influencing the men who are suddenly deciding they are using our spaces, this whole movement would capsize.

If they realised how much envy, anger and disgust our bodies hold for these men, they would be horrified. They envy young women's bodies, they mock and vilify older women's bodies.

The BBC right now are doing a lot of heavy lifting, cutesifying men who dress as women in order to get us to not notice the penis in the room.
But men are still men.
Maybe some of the posters here could look up "sissy porn" for a start.

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/sissy-porn-the-gender-movements-dirty

In his book Femaless^, trans-identifying male writer, Andrea Long Chu, writes:
“Sissy porn’s central conceit is that the women it depicts are in fact former men who have been feminized (‘sissified’) by being forced to wear makeup, wear lingerie, and perform acts of sexual submission. Captions further instruct viewers to understand that the very act of looking at sissy porn itself constitutes an act of sexual degradation, with the implication that, whether they like it or not, viewers will inevitably be transformed into females themselves. This makes sissy porn a kind of metapornography, that is, porn about what happens to you when you watch porn. At the center of sissy porn lies the asshole, a kind of universal vagina through which femaleness can always be accessed. Getting fcked makes you female because fcked is what a female is.”

I've had this argument very recently here on Mumsnet. People don't seem to have a mature understanding about the implications. Yes some people want to use XX or XY as the determinant, even thought you can't see karyotype and it matters not in function.
Personally, as per my comment below, I think it has more to do with function and appearance. Your gym bro friend should NOT be allowed in ladies rooms despite being XX. Similarly someone who presents as woman and has been all her life should NOT be forced to use the gents just because of XY.

If women who have cosmetically altered themselves wish to use the men's facilities and put themselves at risk then that's up to them.

My concern is only that the female facilities are kept for females only. The risks are not symmetrical.

People don't seem to have a mature understanding about the implications.
The implication of basing this on anything other than sex is that any man gets to walk into women's change rooms based on whether he decides he is entitles to be there.
Yes, there are a very few people who pass as the opposite sex but they are the exception not the rule. Removing single sex spaces for those vanishingly few people removes single sex spaces for all. Those are the implications.
And I'm not sure 'implications' is even the right word. 'Implications' implies something that might happen. This is happening. They are unavoidable consequences.
As we saw this week, the consequences are things like a nurse being suspended from her job because she chose to wait outside the changing room while an obviously male person was getting undressed instead of taking off her clothes in front of him.
Any 'mature understanding' of the implications takes everyone who is affected into account, not just a rare few.

Oestrogen treatment doesn't stop beard growth. All it does is cause some (often minor) breast development. That's it. This idea that it's somehow a full female makeover is wrong. It doesn't change height, or the male skeleton, or male pattern baldness, or the unmistakeable male face shape. They are and function as men. There's some suggestion that it may have impotence as a side effect, but that's a may.

Men take oestrogen to grow breast tissue. That's all. And most of them don't even do that. Most of them do nothing beyond a change of clothes. You can buy fake latex breasts, sized for men, on amazon. Knickers to flatten the penis. Wigs. Corsets to create a waist. Padding to create hips. This is something that men have been doing in private for a very long time. The only thing that has changed is that now they're being told they've got a right to do it in public and that other people have to pretend it's real.

The option for women who are pretending to be men is the same as men who are pretending to be women; a unisex third space. BTW there is no such thing as a trans man with a penis because plastic surgery simply isn't that advanced. A facsimile of a penis is created. They don't get spontaneous erections, they don't produce seminal fluid, they don't ejaculate. It's no more a penis than a silicone implant is breast tissue.

This is something I've often wondered. If someone who looks like Brian Michael Smith was in a woman's changing room, I'd imagine they would be challenged. According to many, however, he is perfectly entitled to use the facilities. My question is, how would you know that he had XX chromosomes? Are we going to ask for proof that he's "a female"? And then, if that's the case, what's to stop any man from walking into the women's changing room and stating that they are trans men?

FWIW I believe that trans women are women. And that trans men are men.

Is the penis the issue or the trans. Genuine question? If they are post op would that be ok?

If trans men are so disrespectful of men’s privacy & dignity that they feel it’s fine to go into their spaces that’s on them and that’s on men to deal with

its beyond tedious when TM are used as some kind of gotcha by ppl who seem to be desperate for men to be allowed in women’s spaces

a TM is not a threat to men’s safety, they’re not going to suddenly start attacking men because even though testosterone has a far greater impact on women’s bodies than estrogen does on men’s, it still doesn’t alter their skeletal structure, height or size of hands and feet.

keeping TW out of women’s spaces is about dignity, privacy and safety. it’s embarrassing that ppl try and equate the two. A TM Is still a woman and highly unlikely to be a threat to anyone the same way that women aren’t generally a threat to anyone

It's the being a man issue.

Which doesn't change as a result of surgery.

FWIW I believe that trans women are women. And that trans men are men.

Why would you believe that, it's very obviously not true?

Is there anything else you believe despite all scientific evidence to the contrary?

It's a male issue. A male without a penis is still a male.

Well I looked at that pic and thought “female”. Rather a sweet face.
But in general TIFs “pass” better, because the facial hair and baldness do a lot of heavy lifting, as does the testosterone fuelled muscle growth (no pun intended).
”S/he” would be fine in the gents as a somewhat effeminate looking man. Though I understand that too can cause problems if unlucky.

To be honest, I don't think even TIF pass that well in real life. The height, the gait, the hips, the voice - are all pretty telling.

dignity
noun
the state or quality of being worthy of honour or respect.

So respecting the choice of an individual creates dignity.
Who is making the choice?

Public/community changing areas are single sex for safety and dignity reasons.

sadmillenial
Out of interest, what do contributors here think my trans male friend should do?

You friend a female so a woman has made a choice.

Why do you chose to use the word male here^^ and man below?

Why not use the term man throughout?

He's had gender reassignment surgery about 15 years ago, has a full beard and a penis and is very much a "gym bro" with muscles

She chose to change her body and to change it in a way which would make other woman believe that she was male/man.

She is also choosing to take a drug which has a known side effects agression, supressed fear response etc.

Her choice at each stage.

She may pass 100% and look like a male / a man to the extent that a casual stranger would mis-sex her and use incorrect sexed terms.

So using correct sex terms

Does he have to use female changing rooms because he has XX chromosomes?

She is still a female so a woman and she has the right to use the Womens changing room.

She has no right to use the Mens changing room.
Her problem is that men may not wish to accomadate her in their changing room.

And her choice to alter her body puts other women at risk.

While she has the right her choice results in her self-excluding.
Her choice will have a negitave impact on the provision of Women only changing rooms as a whole.

Her choice reduces the safety.
Her choice reduces the dignity of other women because her choice opens the door to men.

She can still choose to exercise her right to use the Womens changing room.
But she needs to choose to seek appropiate accommiadation which is not an open changing room.

I would expect that the State limit or remove her choices if she is in the prison system or any other situation which forces a member of either sex into physical contact with her.

He is genuinely finding the public conversation around this so difficult because trans men dont seem to be considered.

Because they are women and only really rolled out to explain why men should be allowed into women only spaces.

In your friends case she a woman is entering a space that is so dangerous for some men that they need to take shelter with women space.

That is 'stunning and brave' and without the "how hard it is to pick a dress". However pointing that out works against 'mean women creating harm to safe men' argument.

Women as a group are less risk than men.
Less violent as a group
Less likely to be sex offenders
Less likely to win at mixed sex sport
More likely to be more physical harmed (violence/sport)
Etc

But your friends drug use would move her personal risk status towards the a high end of any scale

Most of my trans female friends already avoid any open space/multi occupancy changing rooms because they don't want to make anyone uncomfortable and want to avoid confrontation.

So there are some men in your friend group who choose to use Women only spaces?

So choosing to make women who do not consent uncomfortable?
Choosing to force a women into a confrontation with a man who has already shown he will ignore social boundries put in place to safeguard women?

And it seems to be a prevailing view here that even after surgery that mean they no longer have a penis they are unwelcome in female changing rooms because of their chromosomal sex.
Is it the presence of XY chromosomes that is the problem? Or the presence of penises?

Men being a man is the problem.

Allowing a man who has a cosmetic process and is taking a drug which reduces agression so reduces his personal risk still requires risk assessment.

Harm is caused to the women dignity and safety in the space before the personalised risk assessment is found to be wrong.

Allowing some men in is the same as allowing any and all men so the risk can only be assessed on a group level.

Women, even if only one, made the choice to reject men from the space.

Women, even if only one, made the choice that Women only means Women/female only.

Men and women who choose cosmetic alteration can accept that choice with dignity or not.

I work on a project with a TIF who’s had a mastectomy at a very young age :( they can’t do anything about their height, hips or shoulder width. They always wear very padded shoulders to try & give the illusion of a male shape.

Firstly, Again with this bs as an attempt to justify the removal of womens single sex spaces.
Not even the most ardent trans activist uses the photo test anymore. You realise photoshop can do wonders? It's in person, it is in the MOTION: the gait, not just the voice, adams apple, lack of hips, square jaw, height, limb size, hand size, philtrum width etc etc etc.

Secondly, how are transwomen 'women'? They are males with male chromosomes, and 92% and I've read as high as 97%, of transwomen retain their penis and testicles. If you have a cock and balls you are not any type of woman, @OnYerselfHen , and have no right being in female only single sex spaces.

FWIW I believe that trans women are women. And that trans men are men.

A "trans woman" is literally any man who declares that he is a woman. So it's a profoundly irrational belief, and an ideological one, that most people don't share.

In the case of the specific legal action (NHS Fife and Sandie Peggie their employee) its 100% funded by the NHS.

From paying someome to write the policy for staff and how to deal with a staff members interactions with a service user who asks for a same sex service etc. To paying for the most senior staff who authoirised the policy changes.

From paying someone to risk assess the staff policy and the service user policy and come up with two different answers and for senior staff choosing not to resolve this problem.

From choosing to ignore the implications for service users in A&E and wider hospital when the staff fear losing their jobs if they try to support user who chooses a same sex medic.

From choosing to run training such that other staff (trained in the need to obtain consent) failed to work out that changing in a room with a member of the oppsate sex is a choice not an obligation.

None of the staff in management positions are at financial risk from choosing to go to the courts.

It's in person, it is in the MOTION: the gait, not just the voice,

The same applies to TIFs

I know one who does try to walk like a man. She moves like a woman doing a bad imitation of Sergeant Major Williams. That's not mocking, it's an accurate description of her gait.