A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

[SernieBanders]

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

It's unclear. But apparently Dr Upton has been telling patients he is a woman. If he examines them then this could be construed as assault since they might not have consented had they been told he was a man.

@Grammarnut thanks.

It's appalling.
I absolutely want to know re man and woman looking at me and my dd and I say that as someone whose had a male doc look right into my privates Twice and make doc supervising trainee doing cervix check which I have to say made me feel uncomfortable because he went strange after, like nice before and clipped after.

I just want to know and be asked.

Totally agree OP

when two separate demographics with protected characteristics are in a situation which is in direct conflict with each other it’s the employers responsibility to ensure both rights are met.

in this situation they should have provided the doctor with a separate space. They chose to sacrifice the rights of the females to have bodily autonomy.

Just my thoughts. If a person is transitioning they are still their birth gender until the transition is over. So If this Dr. has completed his transition and no longer has any male parts he would style himself without the beard? Making himself into the woman he identifies as? Or he would look less male? Whilst he is transitioning he is still a male and should not have access to any female only spaces. I would scream like crazy if I thought there was a man, transitioning or not, in a woman only space. To be blunt if he still has male equipment he is a man. But just my thoughts.

He will always be male. The way he styles his hair or what he does to his penis is irrelevant. And he needs to stay out of women's spaces, they're not his playground.

No one can change sex. Ever. No matter what they do.

Out of interest, what do contributors here think my trans male friend should do?
He's had gender reassignment surgery about 15 years ago, has a full beard and a penis and is very much a "gym bro" with muscles
Does he have to use female changing rooms because he has XX chromosomes? He is genuinely finding the public conversation around this so difficult because trans men dont seem to be considered.

Most of my trans female friends already avoid any open space/multi occupancy changing rooms because they don't want to make anyone uncomfortable and want to avoid confrontation. And it seems to be a prevailing view here that even after surgery that mean they no longer have a penis they are unwelcome in female changing rooms because of their chromosomal sex.

Is it the presence of XY chromosomes that is the problem? Or the presence of penises?

My personal opinion is that if they have gone through major gender reassignment surgery and cosmetic changes, they can be allowed.

So a man who has had his penis inverted into a pseudo vagina, removed testicles, is having ongoing oestrogen treatment so no beard, etc. yes he is serious about being a woman.

A man who has a beard and male genitals and hence can function as a man - no.
Ditto for women - if they have had surgery to create a pseudo penis and balls, and are taking regular testosterone shots and cultivating a beard, yes they are serious about being a man and should then not be allowed into ladies change rooms.

One way or the other - you can't have it both ways. If a man wants to enter ladies rooms, go the whole hog and have the life-changing surgery. If a woman wants to be a man, have the life-changing surgery.

I've had this argument very recently here on Mumsnet. People don't seem to have a mature understanding about the implications. Yes some people want to use XX or XY as the determinant, even thought you can't see karyotype and it matters not in function.
Personally, as per my comment below, I think it has more to do with function and appearance. Your gym bro friend should NOT be allowed in ladies rooms despite being XX. Similarly someone who presents as woman and has been all her life should NOT be forced to use the gents just because of XY.

yeah, im pretty closely aligned with that view myself

I dont understand the focus on XX/XY for this issue, when actually its anatomy that seems to be the thing that people are concerned about

Yes anatomy and function. Once they've lost their dick and balls and hormones are changing how they operate, the chromosomes don't matter.

I actually have some concerns about a FTM trans I know on Facebook, who has gone from being very respectful of others rights to leering at others since starting testos shots. He actually now describes himself as having "always been a gay man" despite having been married 20 years and given birth to 2 kids. So he has not only had the full treatment (and is now very proud of his full beard) but has also claimed 'gay man' identity. All, as far as I can tell, from testosterone shots. Luckily he is on another continent but he is a bit scary even from this far away.

Someone who presents as a woman?

Stereotypically female dress, long hair, make up, even breasts don't mean anything. Body proportions, facial features, gait and voice tell you a person is male.

And faced with a visibly and audibly male person, even with the hair, dress, make up and fake breasts, how do we know whether that person has had genital surgery?

well, you dont...
this is why some of the more "butch" lesbians I know through various sports teams ive played in over the years keep getting challenged, which is the other side of this issue that i think also needs some thought

well, you dont...

So genital surgery is irrelevant, then.

no, that doesn't logically follow from that statement

some women present as quite masculine because of normal variation in body type, plus style/fashion choices with clothes and hair - as i explained, some of my friends have been challenged on this and they are biological women with vaginas

Im just saying that you cant always "know" someone's genitals from looking at them, which is what makes all of this really hard to navigate

Upton is a bloke in the woman's changing room, demanding that women change in there with him.

What the woman's political beliefs are have fuck all to do with whether she should have to share a changing room with a massive bloke with a beard.

Unless you are saying that women who vote for the right are somehow lesser than women who vote for the left?

Or are you saying it's ok for the bearded bloke to be in there because you don't like the way she thinks?

Define gender change

Any man who actually had a clue about what women might feel, would accept:

• that the vast majority of women know what a man is
• that the vast majority of women wouldn't want to share intimate spaces with a man
• that a proportion of those women are sexual assault survivors and may be triggered by a man's body, no matter what he's wearing, presenting as
• that if a woman says she's uncomfortable with a man in the changing room that they should not be there
• that because of the above reasons men shouldn't be in there at all

The ones who don't are the problem. It shows precisely why they shouldn't be in there - zero empathy.
Zero empathy for survivors of sexual assault. Which means that man women have started to give zero fucks about the feelings of men who cosplay as women.

What bits don't you agree with?

IMO full genital reconstruction and hormonal regime.

This is all true. If he is expecting women to accept him as a woman without bothering to go full surgery and hormones, then he is clearly non-empathetic.

Cosmetic surgery and medication can’t and don’t change anyone’s sex. An inverted penis is not a vagina. Hormonally enlarged male breast tissue does not constitute a female breast. Thinking something about oneself doesn’t make it materially real. A male bodied person will always be a male bodied person, potentially a risk to women however he identifies, and should use male facilities or third spaces.

In this context, how female bodied people appear is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the risk to women’s safety, privacy and dignity posed by men, which is what transwomen are.

We’re way past be kind and tolerance. It more or less worked in the 60s, 70s and 80s (I know, I was there) because such situations were relatively - indeed vanishingly - rare, the individuals concerned were generally more discreet and respectful and because if a woman decided to object to having a male in a female space she could say so without being demonised. That’s not now the case.

No men in women’s spaces.

When undergoing sex change surgery the penis is inverted and used to line the vaginal opening created.
I am well aware that such changes don't change the person's chromosomes.

I am also well aware that women can sexually assault other women and indeed FTM women have the equipment to rape women (which is why I think they should be required to use men's rooms). An XX woman with penis and hormones should NOT be allowed in ladies rooms.

When undergoing sex change surgery the penis is inverted and used to line the vaginal opening created.

Which is still an open wound, which will try to close so needs dilating, or a sort of incomplete fistula, not a vagina.

And no XX person - woman - has a functioning penis, ever.

I am also well aware that women can sexually assault other women and indeed FTM women have the equipment to rape women (which is why I think they should be required to use men's rooms). An XX woman with penis and hormones should NOT be allowed in ladies rooms**

A FTM woman does not have a penis.

Whatever we want to call the appendage that's made through surgery, it's not a penis. My understanding is that it requires some kind of pump to even function. I think it's an enormous stretch to say that they have 'the equipment to rape'