A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

[SernieBanders]

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

Exactly. It's in their mitochondria.

That BBC reporting that @BoredZelda quoted is a major part of the problem

It's the justice system maligning SP and may as well be she wore a short skirt

Her character, her husband's FB posts, whatever can be used in the tribunal

It gets picked up by the BBC and amplified by anti women posters

So bad. The whole anti women system needs to go

My head is reeling!!

It's not an attempt to justify anything. It's a genuine question. I don't pay much attention to other people in the toilets or changing room; I'm certainly not checking to see if they have hips or an Adam's Apple.

So if people don't want trans women in women's spaces like changing rooms or bathrooms, how exactly do they tell? If a trans man is allowed in the men's room, how do they distinguish between a trans man and a cis man without scrutinising every person who walks in? And if you have to start inspecting people's bodies or making assumptions based on appearance, where does that stop? Who actually does that? It just doesn't seem practical - or respectful.

Are you saying you can't tell the difference between male and female? 😶

Who needs to scrutinise?

Last year I got off a train and as I walked up the platform I passed a group of people standing by the train door. They were all wearing trousers, jumpers, jackets and all had very masculine haircuts, much shorter than the pixie cut I've worn in the past. They were standing still, I couldn't hear their voices for the racket of the station, and I was past them in seconds. I could still recognise them as a group of women by face and body shape.

Ignoring good design clothing, padding, makeup and photo tricks.

Biology is much kinder to women than men in this kind of cosmetic change.

The total interactions of hormones create the "visual" female and male body.

The form /look follows the function. So 'carrying babies but cant birth' kills off females and being stronger results in more mating oppertunities and makes a better helpmate while raising babies gives compeditive advantage. So 2 general shapes.

Online Human proportions calculator are easy to check to see how functional needs have shape how each sex develop.

Male puberty make very visable changes which are hard hide by changing hormone levels. The body cant remove what was created.

Female (post) puberty changes are also fixed however additional "male" hormone build onto the existing foundation.

So ignoring breast/ genitalis and looking at creating outlines women 'pass' by adding bone and changing muscle/fat ratio but men cant loose bone and muscle loss brings up bone, and fat is not structral.

what's to stop any man from walking into the women's changing room and stating that they are trans men?

That is why women are not used in the debate except to argue that woman As choice removes another woman B's choice and forces B to change beside a man.

Im saying if im in a cubicle in a bathroom and come out and someone else is either going in another cubicle, or washing their hands, I don't pay much attention to them. They're just in my peripheral that a person exists. I'm definitely not looking to see if they have hips, or a waist or an Adam's Apple.

Given that it is possible to tell, with a very high degree of accuracy, what sex someone is on blurry black and white CCTV, this idea that it requires close inspection and conscious effort to tell male from female is, IRL, utter nonsense.

People can tell in a split second. We can tell the sex of the person walking behind us without looking at them.

Pains me to have to point this out, but every human alive today is the product of ancestors who were able to accurately sex other humans.

Oh can I count 'inspecting people's bodies' as the 'genital inspections ' square on my bingo card?

Humans are good at telling each others sex. The survival of our species has depended on it. Women are better at it than men, for the obvious reason that our safety often depends on being good at it.

Without careful poses and filters, the vast vast majority of transpeople are clockable. We can all sex the people in this photo.

Trans men as PP said, have it easier here as beard/balding can help plus men aren't as good as women at correctly sexing others (because they don't need to be) so men may not pay as much attention to a stranger in a toilet, changing room etc. Though every trans man I've met seems to be under 5'3" and slight build, which makes it a harder sell. But anyway, in that scenario the transman is choosing to enter the wrong sex setting and the risk is all to the transman, not the rightful occupants, so tis really not the same as the situation under discussion where a 6' plus male has gone into a women's changing room.

As I said, it is very easy. Every female knows this. We know by even a quick glance. Its an instinct and skill hardwired into women for our survival.

That was to @OnYerselfHen , the quote didn't go through.

Time to dust of these again for the “ooooh but how can you tell??, it’s sooo haaard” brigade”

That's probably because the majority of time you are seeing a cis man or woman. Less than 1% of the population are trans. I've possibly been near a trans man or women and, because I wasn't paying particular attention to them, had no idea.

Cis. Oh puleeaase.

Cis is like having a word for someone who doesnt collect stamps.

No need for it.

And you can take your 2017 arguments and shove it.

Women are allowed to say no to males in their spaces.

And in this particular case Sandie even removed herself from the changing room but even that was seen as wrong by Upton.

The Dr wants to force women to change in front of him. He's an asshole.

Bollocks

And again

we’re talking about keeping TW out of our spaces not because they are trans but because they are men

Scarlet Blake, immediately identifiable as male on black and white CCTV.

A male is a male and looks male, regardless if it 'identifies' as 'c1s' or trans. There is no difference in looks, that's what you don't understand. A male that claims to be a transwoman is a male and looks like a male, the same as any other male.

Lucky you that you don’t pay much attention. Do you understand that others do? And that even watching someone move in peripheral vision can give enough body cues to understand who is male and who is female.

I have poor distance vision and I can reliably identify the sex of a person from their gait and often other movement. And from their facial proportions too.

Just because you don’t doesn’t make your experience universal. And if others can tell the difference, and you can’t, why should female people who can tell the difference have their needs dismissed?

I spotted a transwoman in a group of other women from yards away from behind. They were all wearing the same uniform, all had long hair.

I wasn't looking for him. His gait and his body shape stuck out like a sore thumb amongst the women.

No. It has to do with male and female.

There are several male people in my area who, I assume, are transgender and I also correctly sex them too.

For your “That's probably because the majority of time you are seeing a cis man or woman” to work, firstly requires people to only dress and present according to sex stereotypes. Which is not reflective of reality.

And secondly, it is irrelevant. Because transition does not change the movement, skeletal proportions or gait of humans.

You seem to think you only perceive superficial cues about other people. And maybe you do. But others don’t only perceive and evaluate superficial cues of other humans and they probably have a much higher likelihood of correctly sexing a male person and even a high likelihood of correctly sexing a female person who has been on testosterone.

This needs to be repeated often.

Once a male person, always a male person. No matter what extreme body modifications they have done, they are male.

And it is not just a male person’s penis that is the basis of them being excluded from female single sex spaces.

That is why all this whataboutery that includes ‘I can’t tell’ and ‘what about surgery’ is irrelevant. But unless some people start seeing these types of discussions and why they don’t work, they think that these are strong arguments. Whereas they are actually irrelevant when the reasons as to why male people are excluded are laid bare without the irrelevancies.

How would we know, though? Surgery doesn't stop people being able to tell what sex you really are. And as for genital surgery - really, how would we know who has had it and who hasn't? Do they present a certificate at the door of the changing room, or what?

Genital inspections bingo?

You dont have a issue about being naked in front of strangers of either sex. Some people do.

The problem is that up untill 5 min ago we developed rules to manage the multiple possible points of contact between humans and breaking them 'because I want to' was not accepted as a reason to change the rule.

Pulling out the chamber pot in the middle of dinner was practical but not respectful of your guest and a guest would have been rude to request it. Accidently chucking its content on your guests or strangers heads as you disposed of it out the window was known risk of this practical disposal. So rules can be changed.

Anyway human knows which sex they fall under.

The rules developed to safeguard one group against the other group.

Why is there any obligation on the person who has not broken the rule?

Why is it that the rule breaker gets an 'if I dont get caught It is OK to break the rules' pass?

As for where does it stop, why is that the question we as a society need to ask?

The individual can correctly sex themselves.
The individual knows they are breaking the rule.

Why is the onus on society to be forced into policing the individuals body?

If society agrees that the rule remains why shoild society not put a process in place to police the rule?

If a society can pass a law which allows the State to strip search an arrested person for shoplifting or being drunk in public why should a different standard apply for breaking the law around single sex spaces?

And FYI the society in question had a whole group of women who had to launch a political campaign on ' why a person should not be employed by the State and allowed to comit a sexual assault as part of the job description ' on a person who had already been assaulted.