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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

748 replies

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 17:56

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
cariadlet · 05/02/2025 17:45

If you are on Twitter, please report this account for harassment
x.com/SEENpoliceUK?t=jZinUlH0hAkWsWDUIblZtw&s=09

It isn't the genuine Police SEEN account.

Whoever is behind it has been trying to track down Sandie Peggie's social media and has also been trying to find out the identity of the women doing live tweeting of the case for Tribunal Tweets which has been incredibly stressful for them.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/02/2025 17:52

DuesToTheDirt · 05/02/2025 17:39

There's a reason that indecent exposure is a crime. And it's not because we are unused to nudity, it's because men who exhibit their penis to unconsenting women are generally sexual predators.

Indeed. And the police are clear that that flashing (indecent exposure) is one of those gateway crimes to more serious crimes like rape and murder - as evidenced in the Wayne Couzens conviction.
The crime of voyeurism is also a crime under the sexual offences act and a crime that is primarily (but not solely) committed by maen against women.

Inviting men into spaces where women undress facilitates both these offences.

AssassinsBlade · 05/02/2025 19:14

Dotjones · 05/02/2025 10:26

I voted YABU because I disagree that that it is automatically about intimidation and control. A transwoman who genuinely believes they are a woman cannot be doing it to intimidate and control other women because they genuinely believe they are the same as those women, and therefore them getting undressed in front of them is no different (in their eyes) to another woman getting undressed.

Yes I believe that some (probably most) men pretend to be trans in order to intimidate and control. But not all cases. It depends on the individual and their beliefs.

You and I may believe that a person cannot change sex or gender, a man cannot become a woman, it's bloody obvious, but just as we firmly hold that belief there are others who are certain the opposite is true. A "genuine" transwoman believes they are the same as a real woman. This shouldn't be a surprise, the last couple of decades has convinced them this is the case. (I know the groundwork was laid in the 70s when their was a proliferation in rights for marginalised groups, but it's more recent that it's become mainstream.)

Honestly, for a while I believed it was possible. I was groomed through an 80s and 90s childhood that we had to accept others for who they wanted to be.

And what about the women who know that a male who ‘believes’ himself to be a woman, isn’t in fact a woman? You must see how that impacts in actual women? Why are some people only concerned with the impact this nonsense makes on males?

AssassinsBlade · 05/02/2025 19:20

LillyPJ · 05/02/2025 14:08

You misunderstood me. I don't even like dogs much!

I don’t think we do misunderstand you. I think we understand you very, very well and en masse disagree with you.

delvan · 05/02/2025 19:27

What about a reconfiguration of changing rooms into lovely spacious single person cubicles with toilet, sink and room to change. Unisex.

Would that be an option? I know there are cost considerations, but honestly the amount of money spent on tribunals and replacing those on suspension would probably cover it. Space? Hmmm knock down a few walls into the CEO's office to make room then.

RobinEllacotStrike · 05/02/2025 19:32

Evidence shows increase in women & girls suffering from male violence in unisex toilets.

Plus we are more vulnerable to hidden cameras etc if men can access/share toilets.

Single sex for women plus a unisex would work.

Not sure many men are happy to give up the gents either.

RobinEllacotStrike · 05/02/2025 19:33

delvan · 05/02/2025 19:27

What about a reconfiguration of changing rooms into lovely spacious single person cubicles with toilet, sink and room to change. Unisex.

Would that be an option? I know there are cost considerations, but honestly the amount of money spent on tribunals and replacing those on suspension would probably cover it. Space? Hmmm knock down a few walls into the CEO's office to make room then.

How would that work for sports teams?

delvan · 05/02/2025 19:35

RobinEllacotStrike · 05/02/2025 19:33

How would that work for sports teams?

I don't know, I just threw it out there. But I take your point, I was thinking in hospital setting mode TBH.

Nameychangington · 05/02/2025 19:36

delvan · 05/02/2025 19:27

What about a reconfiguration of changing rooms into lovely spacious single person cubicles with toilet, sink and room to change. Unisex.

Would that be an option? I know there are cost considerations, but honestly the amount of money spent on tribunals and replacing those on suspension would probably cover it. Space? Hmmm knock down a few walls into the CEO's office to make room then.

Is this satire?

My team get changed one at a time in the only toilet. We are considered lucky as we not only have a toilet but also a 16 year old microwave (donated by a patient) and a fridge to keep the milk for our tea in (milk the hospital charges us for). Lovely spacious cubicles will not be provided.

AnSolas · 05/02/2025 20:47

LillyPJ · 05/02/2025 14:08

You misunderstood me. I don't even like dogs much!

Misunderstood ?

You pinned your colour to your mast when you set womens safety at 1+X number of raped women are ok.

You may not be able to work out a minimim acceptable number of rapes, sexual assaults, sexual harrssment etc

TheKeatingFive · Today 09:07
My friend was brutally raped. Who 'trained her to think like that'? The man who raped her? Yes I guess that is a 'shame'? 🙄

LillyPJ · Today 09:12
That's dreadful of course. But one terrible experience doesn't tell us anything about most men.

You are living in a culture where wealth allows humans to use dogs as social companions not task oriented working animals who earn their keep nor focused aggressive territorial predators.

You cultural indoctrination is hear the word dog think friendly social companions

That is why MN's posters using the trite mantra "transwomen are women, its transphobic to question my Faith" is an attempt at social conditioning

It's a shame we seem to be so upset by nudity in this country and automatically think it's all to do with sex always. It really isn't.

So naked in public in the UK = acts sexual reproduction

Now outside and naked in the UK climate is not a winning combination. Historically farming, food prep and fighting worked out better when protective garment were used. The use of protective garments resulted in world leading Uk genetic engineered sheep, helped kick start the industrial revolution, trade wars, and other social changes. The wgole not being naked creates consumer and new markets.

Naked in UK public/community space declined round about the time the Romans and their public bath houses left the UK.

Druids may have been into naked worship but they lost the PR wars. Christian pratice originated out of Jewish tradition which was not big on naked rituals.

But custom support a cast system which developed strict dress code. Joan of Arch was a public example of what happened if men in control got a little upset at a woman breaking the glass celling.

Access to wealth continued to support a social dress code (higher ranked women identifiable by nicer garments and unweathered skin plus were least likely to be unchaporoned in private or public so less likely to suffer sexual assault and in the UK murder by honor killing offending males was 100% legal to about 200 hundred years ago).

Bathing of any description went into decline once the Romans left.
Public baths had a brief revival with the rise of the Emphire, the New Merchant class purchase of public status by good deeds including Publicworks, and the discovery of germs. But the spend on public waterworks and cheap metal allowed the great unwashed to invest in indoor plumbing.

Lady Godiva's naked ride through Coventry was political an act of revolution
Marie Antoinette’s naked nipple was replaced by womens rights, dead ruling class (family and friends of the UK ruling class), a Republic symbol of a naked nipple (massacre of a divine appointed Royal line, a new Royal line who had to be killed off at great financial and human cost to the UK and the unwashed ended up with the vote anyway), Loosing the americas to revolutionaries who did not support womens rights or the King who was divine appointed and Head of the State Religion. The French sent the revoloutionaries a rather large symbol of liberty (women in a dress with covered nipples).

There are whole lot of reasons why the UK social taboo of being naked developed while other cultures accept it to varying degrees.

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 21:41

DuesToTheDirt · 05/02/2025 17:39

There's a reason that indecent exposure is a crime. And it's not because we are unused to nudity, it's because men who exhibit their penis to unconsenting women are generally sexual predators.

How did indecent exposure get swept under the carpet? Now presumably you can always get away with it?

OP posts:
AnSolas · 06/02/2025 05:43

cariadlet · 05/02/2025 17:45

If you are on Twitter, please report this account for harassment
x.com/SEENpoliceUK?t=jZinUlH0hAkWsWDUIblZtw&s=09

It isn't the genuine Police SEEN account.

Whoever is behind it has been trying to track down Sandie Peggie's social media and has also been trying to find out the identity of the women doing live tweeting of the case for Tribunal Tweets which has been incredibly stressful for them.

Bump

Hummm...

Its a snap shot of a TRA
Screen shots + digital editing of images

Anyway

The account holder has an issue with the female staff who dont want to change in mixed sex changing rooms, noticed that the hospital areas which have higher 'doctors changing' need have better male single sex provision and general wards have poor or no provision.

CheekySnake · 06/02/2025 08:50

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 21:41

How did indecent exposure get swept under the carpet? Now presumably you can always get away with it?

I wonder about that too. At what point does a man exposing himself to an unconsenting woman stop being indecent exposure and become just using the changing room as is their right. Why is it suddenly not indecent exposure to show your penis to women without their consent? Why is it suddenly not voyeurism to see them get undressed without their consent?

Many (many) years ago I had an Xmas job at m&s when I was a student. Young female staff weren't allowed to work on the underwear section. Instead, that job was always given to the middle aged, given no fucks women. There were several male customer who were regular visitors to that section, who would try to dodge into the female changing room so they could masturbate in there. The older female staff knew who they were and would chase them off before they got near. Now women are being told those men are to be given unchallenged access for, let's face it, their 'mental health' and that it's bullying if we say no. Because nothing must stand in the way of a man's 'mental health' needs.

CheekySnake · 06/02/2025 08:52

It's like we've decided to ignore everything we know about male sexuality.

OP posts:
SernieBanders · 06/02/2025 09:37

Seriously - why was this moved off the main board? why is this not an everyone issue?

OP posts:
GargoylesofBeelzebub · 06/02/2025 09:52

SernieBanders · 06/02/2025 09:37

Seriously - why was this moved off the main board? why is this not an everyone issue?

Because the men that want access to females undressing want the realities as hidden as possible.

eulittleb831 · 06/02/2025 10:02

I began a new thread on this - Ms Bartosch properly does not use the trans activist terminology “trans woman” and refers to trans identifying males - don’t feed into the narrative!

OP posts:
DuesToTheDirt · 06/02/2025 21:56

A "genuine" transwoman believes they are the same as a real woman.

If a doctor, of all people, believes this, they're in the wrong job.

SernieBanders · 06/02/2025 22:06

AnSolas · 06/02/2025 05:43

Bump

Hummm...

Its a snap shot of a TRA
Screen shots + digital editing of images

Anyway

The account holder has an issue with the female staff who dont want to change in mixed sex changing rooms, noticed that the hospital areas which have higher 'doctors changing' need have better male single sex provision and general wards have poor or no provision.

And those SEEN fakers are asking for someone to volunteer to go citizen arrest the lwyer acting on indies behalf?

https://x.com/SEENpoliceUK/status/1885636699281064281

x.com

https://x.com/SEENpoliceUK/status/1885636699281064281

OP posts:
Nameychangington · 06/02/2025 22:11

Is it bad that I quite want one of these individuals to attempt to make a citizens arrest of a lawyer during a tribunal for doing something that isn't a crime? The optics on that would be something. In Minecraft obviously, not in real life.

LucieLemon · 06/02/2025 22:12

I'm curious as to what Fife's stance would be if a female patient requested to see a female doctor. It happens on occasion and the request is honoured when possible.

Would Dr Beth be fine to attend? How far does the acceptance of them being a woman go?

Nameychangington · 06/02/2025 22:18

LucieLemon · 06/02/2025 22:12

I'm curious as to what Fife's stance would be if a female patient requested to see a female doctor. It happens on occasion and the request is honoured when possible.

Would Dr Beth be fine to attend? How far does the acceptance of them being a woman go?

If their policy is anything like the policy of my employer (major NHS teaching hospital) it says that the patient can request a HCP of the same gender. It doesn't say the same sex.

In the single sex wards policy at my Trust, it says that women who object to sharing a bay wth a transwoman should be treated the same as racists. So yeah, potentially your consent is overridden in order to validate the special feelings of the sacred caste. Last year a woman had her NHS-funded surgery at a private hospital cancelled because she said she only consented to same sex care.

JazzyJelly · 06/02/2025 22:51

Nameychangington · 06/02/2025 22:18

If their policy is anything like the policy of my employer (major NHS teaching hospital) it says that the patient can request a HCP of the same gender. It doesn't say the same sex.

In the single sex wards policy at my Trust, it says that women who object to sharing a bay wth a transwoman should be treated the same as racists. So yeah, potentially your consent is overridden in order to validate the special feelings of the sacred caste. Last year a woman had her NHS-funded surgery at a private hospital cancelled because she said she only consented to same sex care.

That's terrifying. Surely a patient is vulnerable after surgery, and there's plenty of reasons sometimes might want or need single-sex care.

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