A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

[SernieBanders]

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

Some do. The vast majority don't.

But you said it's a 'shame' that as a suciety we'd been 'taught to think like that'.

Is it a 'shame' if my friend needs single sex spaces when she's undressing to feel comfortable. Whose fault is that exactly?

Just out of interest, how should we be 'trained' to think, in your opinion?

The limited studies that have been done have suggested that around 10% of men have an interest in rape. To put that in perspective, in the average secondary school classroom in the UK, that's at least 1 boy in every class room. If there are 50 male staff, it's 5 teachers. In one school. There are 1500 kids at the comp my children go to. That means roughly 750 boys, which means roughly 75 rapists to be, most of whom will never be caught.

Women cross paths with dangerous men every single day. Most of the time we're unaware of it, because funnily enough, they don't walk around with a badge on saying I'm a rapist. There are also no badges for the domestic abusers, the peeping toms, the ones with a sexual interest in children, the ones who steal underwear from washing lines, the ones who masturbate in the unisex toilet in starbucks, the ones who masturbate in the knicker section of M&S, the ones who enjoy pressing their erection against women on a crowded tube, the ones who go online and pretend to be teenage girls to get real teenage girls to send them nudes, the ones spiking drinks in bars, the ones hiding cameras in the bathroom at home, and in the unisex changing cubicle of the gym where they go to swim on a daily basis, the ones upskirting women at the shopping centre, the ones cyberflashing random women online.

I have met in my life so far, 1 man who killed his wife, 2 more who beat their wives, 2 paedophiles, both of whom went to prison (one of them was a teacher), and 1 man who went abroad specifically to access prostituted girls in their early teens. And that's in a normal, ordinary life, and those are only the ones I know for definite. I am sure there are others, just as repulsive, who I met but didn't know about.

Most people aren't burglars but I still lock my door when I go out. Maybe I should have just been trained to understand that precautions aren't necessary, it's my awareness that burglars exist that's the real problem.

It is experience unfortunately. The stats on how many females have been harassed by males are pretty shocking.

I get leered at all the time because I have big boobs and that's when they're covered. I absolutely would not want to have a male where I am undressing.

that doesn't matter FFS - because 99% of all sexual assault.- happens by someone with a penis

Why do you think we have male and female spaces exactly?

I think it’s millennia of living with the reality of how men as a class (Mis)treat women and girls that has “trained” us and it isn’t just a British phenomenon.

We make rules about dogs.

Some breeds and types are judged too dangerous to live in society and are banned.

Some breeds and types have to be kept on a lead and/or muzzled at all times.

All dogs have to be kept on a lead or are banned altogether in some places.

Postal workers will not deliver to addresses with problem dogs.

Rules, for safety.

And we don't know which is which.

"Some dogs harm or even kill people; most don't. Yet we mainly trust them and even like them, and don't even think about the threat!"

So men are the dogs in this scenario? Or are transwomen being compared to dogs?

You can speak for yourself re trusting dogs but many people do not trust dogs.

I'd be uncomfortable getting undressed in close quarters with a Rottweiler of either sex to be fair. Even a Rottweiler called "he's gentle as a lamb I promise".

Regardless, if a hospital's policy was to provide dog free changing rooms, I would not expect to find any dogs in my changing room. I would expect even those dogs who identify as cats to be kept out in accordance with the policy of excluding dogs.

And my experiences in a naked mixed sauna have absolutely solidified that. I was in a swimming costume lying in a heated bed reading when a man decided to dry his penis right in my face. No thank you.

The likelihood of you being burgled is statistically tiny. Do you lock your door when you go out? Have a ring doorbell?

Gosh, we are really hitting new lows in this argument when we have people chiming in with 'but dogs ...'

🙄

Trans women are women. Full stop.

No, they aren't. They are male. Women are female. Full stop.

Yup.

You could have the loveliest, safest dog in the world (because some people apparently have the ability to tell now), if it's not allowed in a dog free area, then it's not allowed in a dog free area. The end.

Speak for yourself, I was badly bitten by a dog and I never go near them unless I have too

👏

In my almost 40 years of existence, I've been groped more than times I can remember by random men in clubs and bars. I was 15 working in a retail shop on a weekend and had the male security guard (in his 40s and a parent of teenage gurls) grope me and make lewd remarks every single shift. I've been catcalled at - as a fucking CHILD walking down the street by men. I have men regularly (and I mean regularly, like maybe twice a week!) send me unsolicited dick pics to my Facebook messages on my business page, with gross sexual.content.

I've had men press their dickks up against me when we've been on busy trains and buses. Weirdly women don't seem to have to rub themselves up me.

And that's just 'minor' stuff compared to the women who have had to experience the trauma of rape and more serious sexual assault. I know far too many women who have experienced it, and they're just the ones who have opened up about it. They'll be many, many more who just don't ever tell anyone.

What's the one thing in common with everyone? These things were done by MEN. People who were born male. Biological men.

Of course it's not all men. I have a dad, brothers, nephews, partner, sons, as well as plenty of male friends. I bloody hope none of them do anything like this. They all seem like good men and I wouldn't associate with them if I thought otherwise, but you never ever truly know...and because of the (scarily large!) number of men who do these vile acts, you cannot assume and so women and girls (not men who dress up as women) NEED safe spaces from men.

If you had a box of ten maltesers and knew that one of them contained a dangerous to life poison but tou disnt know whixh one, would you eat them anyway because it's not all maltesers, just one dangerous one in the box?
Like fuck you would. You'd avoid them.

I imagine more than one male out of every ten has committed some sort of sexual crime. I

I'd very much like the 9% who voted unreasonable to stand up and say to your face why you are somehow in the wrong here.

I know 91% of people agreeing is huge - but why is it not 100%? What is wrong with (I assume mainly women) putting mens wants above women's rights?

There's a certain type of woman that will always put men first.

I don't think any of my male colleagues are a threat, I'm pretty sure my gay male colleague isn't going to be letching over my flabby 50 year old stomach. Or try to attack me.
i still don't want to get changed in front of them, particularly unexpectedly.

There's a certain type of woman that will always put men first.

Sadly this is true.

Commonly known as a penis panderer - dicks before chicks every single time however they dress it up

And to add to this 100% of rapes happen by someone with a penis. The legislation requires one

You think that 'trained doctors' review and agree hospital policies about changing rooms? Lol no. I work in a world famous teaching hospital and I can assure you that those decisions are made by pen pushers who have never had to change their clothes at work, advised by external lobbying organisations and in breach of the Equality Act.

You have no reason to think that doctors have decided to support Dr Upton, but even if they did it's irrelevant. Fife's policy is discrimination on the grounds of sex. The hospital has an obligation to provide single sex changing rooms and Dr Upton is male both literally and legally, that fact is I believe undisputed by either side in the tribunal. So the hospital allowing Dr Upton to use the female changing room while male means the hospital are in the wrong both legally and morally.

PS I will refer to a man as a man as often as I like thanks, you can't force me to believe in your religion and I won't be saying the words of your religion.

I voted YABU because I disagree that that it is automatically about intimidation and control. A transwoman who genuinely believes they are a woman cannot be doing it to intimidate and control other women because they genuinely believe they are the same as those women, and therefore them getting undressed in front of them is no different (in their eyes) to another woman getting undressed.

Yes I believe that some (probably most) men pretend to be trans in order to intimidate and control. But not all cases. It depends on the individual and their beliefs.

You and I may believe that a person cannot change sex or gender, a man cannot become a woman, it's bloody obvious, but just as we firmly hold that belief there are others who are certain the opposite is true. A "genuine" transwoman believes they are the same as a real woman. This shouldn't be a surprise, the last couple of decades has convinced them this is the case. (I know the groundwork was laid in the 70s when their was a proliferation in rights for marginalised groups, but it's more recent that it's become mainstream.)

Honestly, for a while I believed it was possible. I was groomed through an 80s and 90s childhood that we had to accept others for who they wanted to be.