To find what DC said really sad?

[Haemagoblin]

I was parking the car with my DD8 in the back, and making a bit of a hash of it. I laughed to DD "God I hope Daddy's not looking out the window, he'll be laughing at me!"

She replied "he wouldn't laugh - he doesn't even smile very much".

I find this so so sad. I mean she's not wrong, he's a bit of a gloomy person; but he does try to be a good dad, playfights with them and teases them and makes jokes,so I guess I didn't realise how much his naturally quite negative vibe was actually being picked up on by the children.

Should I talk to him about it? We are not in a very good place so I worry he'll see it as me getting at him - but if my kid had said something like that about me I'd want to know!

But there isn't really any way to 'mitigate' it. If he goes for 50/50he'll get it. It's the starting point for family court unless there's a solid reason why it's not in the children's best interest. Him being a bit grumpy will not be considered a relevant factor to this. The fact he has been very present and active throughout their childhood, doing half the school drop offs and pickups, equal hit to career when they were at nursery by going part time when I did, fully competent at keeping them fed/watered/clean and on schedule... I would lose my kids 50% of the time. They would lose me 50% of the time. I would have no control over their environment or exposure 50% of the time. How do you 'mitigate' that?

I really don't think 'suck it and see' will work here, because it's my kids' future. I have to think about the variables and potential outcomes of every choice.

He is. But I don't think it would be in their interest to not have me in their life 50% of the time.

These are wise concerns.

And sometimes marriages can improve, too: my parents were pretty unhappy in the 90s. They wouldn't have considered divorce even if they'd been desperately unhappy.

So they stayed together, ended up growing in their love for each other and eventually falling back in love. Out of five decades, one tough one isn't so bad. I'm so thankful they stuck with each other.

You could go away for a few days. Deliberately and with his support. Be open that neither of you are happy, and the kids are picking up on it. Something needs to change.
Split
Medication
Change of lifestyle in some way - you both actively live separate lives and support each other to take up hobbies and have a life outside with friends.

If the answer after a week away with some level of self awareness is that he does feel less unhappy and more relaxed then perhaps that would be a good thing and open the door to a healthier conversation about co-parenting?

Why did you get together and get married though? You must have had stuff in common then? To a previous poster's point about tough spells - is this one? Life with small children was a relentless grind in my experience. A hamster wheel of never ending chores, crappy kids tv and the same thing every bloody day.. I love them but god some days were very dreary

OP from reading your updates there are a lot of mights - your kids might be damaged by splitting being your number 1 concern (as it should be). This is the thing about change, you don't always know it's going to be better to change rather than stay. But you are a lot more informed about what will happen if you stay together - you will not magically become happy. His behaviour and your responses to him show that - clear as day. Also, you are not your mother, your father, your step mother etc. You will not be like them.

When I ended my marriage, I was terrified of the changes. But that couldn't be the reason I didn't choose to end it. You matter too.

You know he's a good father most of the time. You know he will be an active father who continues to cherish your kids. These things will not likely change, whether you are together or not. And if they do, you'll face that challenge and change, just like all the others.

It takes strength to push unhappiness down, for years and years for the good of the kids. From the hint of what your child has said, your strength is being used in a way that isn't helping. She sees you trying to make daddy happy. Bending yourself around to keep the peace or to smooth things over. What has that achieved? He's still grumpy and unhappy. What does that teach her?

I have to remind my girls (mid and late teens now) that they are not responsible for their dad's happiness or his behaviours. That's not even my job anymore! And I've had to step in a couple of times since the divorce (5 years ago) to gently but firmly make sure he knows that it is impacting them. He takes it on board mostly too.

If you knew the outcome of all the options, with certainty and conviction, which would you choose? Stay and suck it up, or separate and see where life takes you? That will be your answer and no listing the options and the potential what if's is going to fix this for you.

Considering how my mother never shuts the fuck up (after 35 years of divorce) about how everything was my father's fault and how she was the poor suffering SAHM that he took evil advantage of and then discarded, my poor SIL (who my mother also treated like shit because she was jealous of her, her decent career and her loving family) probably saw it as a bonding moment - 'Yes, poor older brother has said that he doesn't have a single happy childhood memory'...and of course my fucking narc mother saw it as a criticism of her perfect parenting...because of course SHE didn't nothing wrong...

I hold both parents responsible for what happened when I was a child. My mother could have got us out of the situation at any time, she was independently wealthy and had a large family willing to support her. She put her marriage and religion (Catholic) and the desire to display as the perfect Mother (a complete sham) above the welfare of her 3 children.

My brother had already previously told my mother we had a shit childhood - she countered by getting personally nasty and saying things like 'oh yes we made you walk 10 miles to school and then made you work down the mines' ... she has absolutely ZERO accountability for her part in it all.

That's probably why he's been extremely low contact with her, like I have been, for 25 years. She actually found out from my now SIL that they had bought a new house and moved...he couldn't be arsed telling her. If it was left to my brother he'd have zero contact with my mother. It's my SIL who tries to keep the connection. If I was her, I wouldn't bother, my mother doesn't appreciate it.

And if you want another example of what my mother is like, she used to be very jealous of my MIL (same age as my mother) and FIL...they both worked very hard and reaped the rewards when they were in their 40s/50s - good holidays, house paid off, my husband had a good settled childhood and education, went to Oxford etc...basically everything myself and my two brothers didn't have. Every time I rang my mother during that time she'd be sure to make some bitchy remark about my MIL i.e. 'oh are they off on holiday AGAIN? Must be nice to have no money worries' etc

That only stopped when poor MIL was diagnosed with terminal cancer at 68. She died 2 years later...I said to my mother 'not so envious now, eh?' She had the sense to keep her ugly mouth shut then.

Any parent who doesn't think like this needs to take a long, hard look at themselves.

Angry outbirsts...did he always have them, even when dating

He did, although more often it was sulking or just walking off/disappearing on nights out. I was no angel myself in those days, we'd fall out and I'd get very drunk and emotional. I stopped all that after one particularly bad night when he called the police on me as I hit my head against a wall because I was so frustrated and upset. Having to explain myself to the old bill, and realising how I must have frightened him, was a massive wake up call. So no more getting plastered. Ah, my twenties. Things got a lot better after that. I managed everything better. So about 7 years of cohabiting down the line from that incident, we had a baby. And everything changed, I was no longer able to manage everything or overlook things or work around or make allowances. I had real expectations now, for her. And it's been all to fuck with our relationship ever since.

However as you can see from the above, I'd not necessarily be sweetness and light even without him. I'm a bit of a mess, and always have been. Otherwise of course I never would have been with someone so insuited to me in the first place.

I have to bookmark this thread because it resonates so strongly with me, OP. I don't think i have anything useful to add but I think I have a very similar situation to you. My children are 8 and 5 and a surprise nearly 2 year old.

My situation has got a lot worse and then more recently a little better since my third arrived. Perhaps it brought everything more into focus. I don't know if we'll manage to stay together but I agree with you that it will likely be better for the kids.
I really strongly relate to what you say about his 'striving' habit - I remember a conversation that explained a lot of things to me once with my H where he said that to him, happiness is like summiting a mountain - the satisfaction and sense of euphoria of having achieved it but then that's brief, and it's a struggle up to the next peak before another brief moment. Happiness isn't that at all to me - it's sitting in a warm room with my beloved children after a meal and smiling across at my husband because we're safe and everyone's well.
He couldn't understand me at all. My version of happiness is very achievable because its about contentment which with some luck is not hard to get hold of. I feel the same frustration as you because to me HE'S the one stealing happiness from our family by not smiling back at me in the metaphor above - he can only see the things we haven't got. I would hate his version of happiness (looks a lot like unhappiness to me!) But that striving, that dissatisfaction with his lot, seems to be what he actually wants.
We're fundamentally unsuited because I want a quiet life of small pleasures and living in the moment and he wants to push the envelope, try new things, feel challenged etc etc. He can't settle which is sad for me but so far, I have a life of sharing the small satisfactions with other people.

@TotHappy are you me??? You have described it exactly, couldn't have put it better myself. Unsurprisingly he's just like my father 🤦🏼‍♀️ if only we had the insight in our early 20s that comes to us as parents/older women... Could save everyone a lot of pain.

Yes! I married him at 20, I'd been seeing him since I was 17. I didn't choose him in any meaningful sense, we just liked each other as friends (also met in student housing!) and enjoyed going to the pub together, chatting about music, bonding over bad films... we didn't know each other or ourselves. In retrospect I was desperate to feel loved and wanted and didn't even really consider if I wanted HIM. It didn't occur to me I'd have options... at 17!

I've found myself thinking I wish he was more like my dad, who I love dearly, but actually... my dad is entirely emotionally unavailable and was very shouty, stressed out and unhappy when I was young. He was very nurturing to us as in nothing was too much trouble but never with a smile, there was a lot of huffing and puffing. I was constantly trying to seek his approval, to raise a smile. My mum spent my whole childhood battling him to be seen and respected and so I suppose from the wife's perspective, my H is the same. Shit. This is like therapy on here!

My parents did stay together and perhaps you could say Mum won the battle. Whether because of all the almighty rows, or because we eventually grew up and moved out, or because he retired, my dad is a lot better now. He's gentler, seems happier, plans nice things for her.

She isn't much happier though and I think all those unhealed wounds he would never acknowledge are still there. Something for both of us to think about, perhaps. Like you, I haven't forgiven my H for not being there for me in pregnancy and post-partum when I needed him and I don't think I will unless he acknowledges that he let me down. It's that that makes me afraid to rely on him in old age.

If it were me, I would stay for the childre if leaving would cause you more heartache. It sounds like it is bearable and your DH is bearable even if you aren't suited. Can you attend marriage counselling to see if you can improve communication. You could always leave when the children are 18.

I recognise the 'striving' thing. My DH is definitely more ambitious / more of a perfectionist than me - not only in a work context, but in terms of things like the house we live in and his own body (eg he paid to wear Invisalign braces and correct a small imperfection in his teeth which I personally wouldn't have bothered with). I am content, like OP and @TotHappy, with a lovely family and a nice house, I don't feel I need anything more than we already have. But I guess the difference is that I wouldn't describe my DH as grumpy or angry or joyless. I think you can strive for things without being negative and moany the whole time.

Are you really suggesting here that OP's partners moods are her responsibility?

OP you are one of the most insightful posters I've ever seen on here. You have clearly thought this all through, weighed up the options, the pitfalls, and the known-unknowns. It's very impressive, and you're right that you can't just suck it and see.

It sounds like you might well be making the right call; this is his personality and he's going to be in your children's lives with his gloomy personality either at 50% of the time without you, or more but with you there to dilute it. Separation comes with loads of challenges, difficulties and unknowns, if things aren't bad together, why are those downsides worth it?

True, you will not be in control. But you only have very limited control anyway. Your husband's personality is what it is, and it affects your children whether you stay or go. You can't mitigate all the effects on your children either way.

Staying is also "suck it and see". Or rather, it's something you can re-evaluate as events happen and things change and time goes by, which is what I really meant.

Anyway I realise you weren't asking whether to stay or go. You were asking whether to speak to your DH and tell him what DD said. You also asked if it was sad, and yes, it is sad, and yes it's OK to share that sadness with your husband. I think it's less likely to sound like "getting at" him if you use a sad and reflective low tone (which is how you really feel!) and speak slowly, rather than (fake) casual minimising it or a sharp angry tone.

Thank you so much to everyone for your kind words and good points. I am taking it all on board. I do think I let myself get into a spiral sometimes and stop seeing that this situation is not inevitable and changing it will not necessarily lead to disaster. My background definitely affects my thinking on this.

Certainly events like this awful crash in the States makes you double take, pick your head up out of your relatively small problems and remind you that you are lucky to have them - lucky to be here to worry about the welfare of the kids you are so lucky to have. We're all so fragile and so is the happiness we manage to carve out.