To find what DC said really sad?

[Haemagoblin]

I was parking the car with my DD8 in the back, and making a bit of a hash of it. I laughed to DD "God I hope Daddy's not looking out the window, he'll be laughing at me!"

She replied "he wouldn't laugh - he doesn't even smile very much".

I find this so so sad. I mean she's not wrong, he's a bit of a gloomy person; but he does try to be a good dad, playfights with them and teases them and makes jokes,so I guess I didn't realise how much his naturally quite negative vibe was actually being picked up on by the children.

Should I talk to him about it? We are not in a very good place so I worry he'll see it as me getting at him - but if my kid had said something like that about me I'd want to know!

As things are now, I can't imagine us ending up together. The thought of being old and ill and relying on him for physical or emotional support fills me with dread. But we have had periods where we are happier and work better together. We are in the trenches right now (40, two primary age kids, work stresses etc) so there is the possibility that as the pressures on us ease we will be able to shake down together better. He's not (as I frequently have to remind myself) a bad man or a bad father. We just can't give each other what the other needs and have stopped being able/never have been able to emotionally trust each other.

My goal isn't really for the long term - it's to raise and launch the children in as low stress environment as possible. After that I will reassess us as a couple, but honestly without the glue of necessity binding us I can't see it working out. He won't change so unless I'm willing to abnegate myself for life we can't make it work. Although who knows, without the inhibiting factor of keeping things on the rails for the kids, we'll have some real uninhibited ding dong rows and maybe that'll be the making of us! I'll happily abnegate myself for the time being if it will make a better environment for my children overall. The struggle is when you put so much effort in and it's still not enough to make him happy, to the point the kids have noticed, which sort of undermines the whole thing. But I can't ignore the effort he's making either, and how difficult it must be not to be happy and not even know what would make you happy.

You can let him know, but in a way in which he knows you’re not getting at him. My DS2 once said something about his dad, my ex, that was quite upsetting, regarding how he spoke to him sometimes. I decided to speak to my ex about it, and he did take it well. In that he knew I had only our son’s wellbeing at heart, and I wasn’t point scoring. He cried when I told him, but he changed. I was glad I spoke to him. It had to be said, it wasn’t information I could ignore once said. My ex was grateful I told him and he was able to make changes.

Your DH may take it badly, but he might think about it afterwards. It sounds like neither of you are happy, and this can have deep rooted effects on DC. My parents stayed together for the kids, and in my late 40’s I am still impacted by living in a household of people always at each other, arguing, fighting. I don’t know why people think it’s better for DC, as mainly it isn’t. And as you can see, DC pick up on things.

I think this is one of those things where it's very hard for the two "sides" to see each others points of view as one only has the one life experience; but my parents did split up, and I am still impacted by the consequences of that - not least that I also grew up in a house with arguing and fighting as my dad and step mums relationship was also not good - people who are bad at relationships don't magically become good at them because they leave the one they're in. And feeling abandoned and displaced and replaced has led to a lot of emotional problems for me. And longer term my mum had health problems and money problems and it was difficult feeling responsible for that as a young adult because she was on her own with no partner, and not being able to seek parental support from my more healthy and financially stable dad to deal with this because they were split and therefore "nothing to do" with each other.

I'm not discounting your experience - just that the alternative you didn't experience would not necessarily have been better than the reality you endured.

As I say it's a choice with no "good" outcome for the kids. Only a very fine weighing up of which bad outcome is the least bad.

Well put.

I guess I wonder how that works in his relationships where he isn't the dependent. How does he express joy and pleasure in his spouse, or his kids? How do they know they make him happy and bring him joy?

Is he always like this? Could it just be his personality? I guess there is a difference between being happy and always smiling. Some people just don’t smile a lot. I say this as someone that is genuinely content but I don’t always appear it (mainly because I had terrible teeth when young and didn’t smile and realised I don’t smile as much as I should). That’s just one example. As PP has said - is he depressed? Some people have a gloomy personality.

Kids pick up absolutly everything though. I see why it seems sad but it’s also a truthful observation.

Maybe just check in on him. No grand gesture but a weather check.

Don't be another woman resigning herself and her children to a shit situation. They don't have a choice, you do. Set a good example and show that they should only stay in relationships that make them happy.

Don't kid yourself that your children will benefit from living with an angry, grumpy man. I grew up with one, my siblings and I have not forgiven him or my mum.

He's very unlikely to go for 50/50 contact, and your children will vote with their feet the moment they're old enough.

Edit -feel like people are ignoring that he went to anger management. What happened?

He needs to be aware and that:

1. the kids notice
2. it affected them and before they know it they may start blaming themselves for that

and he has to correct that (by seeking help, faking it, whatever works for him). I’m not the most cheery person but i try as my DC will come and ask ‘what happened that ‘I’ didn’t smile today’ if I’ve had a bad day and would ask if they did anything to upset me.

He absolutely will go for 50/50 contact. He loves the kids and has been very hands on with them, used to be part time so he could have a day off with them when in nursery etc. We had a talk about whether we should break up a couple of years ago and he explicitly said he would go for 50/50. And that is the basis for custody arrangements that family courts start from. So they would still be living with an angry grumpy man much of the time, without me to take the edge off. The only question there is whether he is better when I'm not there making him unhappy, but based on how much the kids prefer to be with me I'd guess not. Obviously I can't check this!

As you say when the kids can vote with their feet it might be worth revisiting separation. But for now I can't see how separating will protect them. Children don't always follow their parents' example; my mum walked out on her relationship with my dad, and as he threatened to go after her mental health in court if she didn't give him full custody, she did. As a consequence I would NEVER leave my children, and would do pretty much anything to avoid a situation where they have to be without me 50% of the time.

Re anger management - he used to lose his temper and shout a lot. On one occasion he hit the doorframe in front of our toddler. I told him if he didn't get help I would leave him, and if he ever did anything approaching that when our children were in the house again I would leave him. He spoke to the GP the next day, did a course of CBT he found really challenging but came away with a toolkit for managing his stress he has actually found really useful and there hasn't been another incident of shouting since.

Is "playfighting and teasing" his children really the mark of a good father?
Or is it intimidating them with his physical size and strength over theirs, and putting them down?

This massively atood out for me too. Someone you describe as an angry man and a grumpy man, who your child says never smiles, should not be ‘play’ fighting with children or making fun of then.

your poor children. Youre not taking the edge off his angriness by living together, in their eyes you are condoning it.

Oh no trust me they have the upper hand in the playfighting. Largely consists of them pushing him over and jumping up and down on him while he affects total helplessness. They love it, and I thank god he does it because my body is falling apart and I have zero patience for that kind of thing 😂

The teasing I do not get at all as it would drive me bananas, but it's stupid things like asking what they want on their toast and, when they say "butter and jam", putting the tub and the jar in a tower on the slice 🤦🏼‍♀️ bloody nonsense but the kids do find it funny!

I have little advice but I just want to say that you sound an incredibly thoughtful, kind and selfless mum OP and whatever choices you make, and however things evolve- and of course, you are not the only person with agency - your children will benefit enormously from that. I ended my not dissimilar sounding marriage 8 years ago when my children were 6 and 9 and we have been doing 50/50 since. Though they rarely complain and are pretty happy well balanced teenagers now, I continure to feel guilt and sadness hat this is their life, that they don't get to have the conventional and from their point of view, more ideal set up, that their lives will continue to be complicated. Hand on heart, while it was 100% the right choice for me, on balance I don't think it was necessarily the right choice for them. You are very close to where I was and I jumped. Of course I have no way of knowing what the other choice would have ended up like. Muddling through and ok I think, certainly not terrible or miserable. So probably though not necessarily better for them. The 'original sin' as such in my case- possibly in yours - was the poor choice of partner/,husband. Everything else flowed from that and was always going to be difficult, flawed, messy. As you say, no 100% good choices, just less bad ones. All you can do regardless is continue to be as good a parent as possible and within appropriate age limits, continue to talk to them, to be open yourself, to allow feelings to be expressed, especially if you do split up. I have a male friend who was bemoaning how his son post separation would never talk about it ((I'm fine!) but as I said, why would he when he has learned at the hands of a master not to talk about his feelings. We cannot make our children happy, but we can certainly through example and encouragement, teach them to express and cope with their feelings. What your daughter said about her Dad is very sad on one hand but also very astute and emotionally intelligent and these are things that will stand her in good stead regardless of what the future holds. We none of us know what that will be.

* We are not in a very good place*

no surprise
your daughter seems to be acutely aware of and indeed suffering from a very poor atmosphere

Thank you so much for this post, it means the world to me and I'm wiping away a tear if I'm honest. It sounds like your kids are doing great in the circumstances, and you sound like a lovely mum.

I certainly won't countenance initiating breaking up and making the kids lives exponentially more complicated unless that's what he wants.

”more complicated” perhaps logistically
but a damn sight happier in every other respect I would guess

Suffering is a very big word to use. The OP's marriage is not great but no ones life, including no child's life is perfect or without challenge. It is how we navigate these things that matter.

I dare say he would be a lot happier if "we" were happier; but from my perspective, one of the main reasons our relationship is on the skids is because he's so fucking miserable, grumpy and negative.

So he’s like this with the children even when you’re not around?

Well I don't know because I'm not around! And a 4 year old and an 8 year old aren't the most sophisticated rapporteurs (not that I'd interrogate them about their dad's mental state while I was out).

* he's so fucking miserable, grumpy and negative. *

parents that don’t love one another, not affectionate, not supportive, no laughing. The atmosphere must be awful and everyone unhappy. If the op thinks they’d be happier apart, then the parents happiness will bring happiness to the children

Yes but you’d know if he was “fucking miserable, grumpy and negative** when you weren’t around as presumably they wouldn’t want to be with him or would say something to you. Surely?!

My DH grew up with parents like this (they’re still together).

They are now early eighties and despise one another. They are both individually so unhappy and angry. And my DH can’t stand being with them. It’s heart breaking because they are good people and would have made wonderful parents…. Separately

But just because I think I'd be happier doesn't mean I would. Just because I might be doesn't mean he would be. And even if we were both happier, our separation would affect our kids' lives in ways that might make them unhappy quite out with our happiness (happy i.e. self-focussed parents do not necessarily equal happy kids, if the parents' happiness requires the kids to live a life no adult would choose (two separate homes, potential strange adults and other unrelated children and further half siblings living in them, contrast between half sibs/stepsibs who get to live with their parent(s) all the time Vs self shuttling back and forth a d missing half of everything...). I'm not saying there aren't situations that would still be for the best. Maybe even in mine. But I'm not convinced of that yet because it's complicated.

I think it's very sensible to weigh these things up OP. I'm another child of divorce and much as my parents were ill suited, divorce has brought significant and life long consequences to our whole family. I find Mumsnet curiously blind to the fact that divorce absolutely comes with negatives to a family as well as positives (of course not talking about abuse situations).