To find what DC said really sad?

[Haemagoblin]

I was parking the car with my DD8 in the back, and making a bit of a hash of it. I laughed to DD "God I hope Daddy's not looking out the window, he'll be laughing at me!"

She replied "he wouldn't laugh - he doesn't even smile very much".

I find this so so sad. I mean she's not wrong, he's a bit of a gloomy person; but he does try to be a good dad, playfights with them and teases them and makes jokes,so I guess I didn't realise how much his naturally quite negative vibe was actually being picked up on by the children.

Should I talk to him about it? We are not in a very good place so I worry he'll see it as me getting at him - but if my kid had said something like that about me I'd want to know!

We have talked about this. He was not up for it.

I understand he probably wouldn’t be willing to try individual counselling at the moment from the way you describe him but would he consider couples therapy?

You sound so insightful OP and you seem to have a clear understanding of your situation.

Are you really sure you can't find a way to repair the relationship. You are an intelligent woman so I don't believe you would have had kids with someone you didn't want to.

A previous poster mentioned date nights and was mocked for it but I actually don't think it a bad idea. Wouldn't it be good to find a way to try and connect with your husband again. You both sound uptight and sound up at the moment. You both need to see if there is any love left in your relationship. I wouldn't go on 'date nights' as they are too full on but I'd look to do things which fall into the adult version of 'parallel play'. So hanging out together and having fun but not too much interaction. A playful sport like badminton or going to see a movie or a comedy night. Make the activities short and sweet but get back into the habit of enjoying doing things together. If you really don't think you want to leave then maybe, if you can afford it, this would be worth a try.

Are there any other practical things that might make life easier for the both of you?

I've never asked because I know how it would go. I would talk, a lot, as I have here, and he would say nothing at all. It's not that he won't, he literally can't. He has no language for describing his interiority. Every conversation we've ever had about our relationship I have had to do SO much legwork and scaffolding and going out on a limb to get anything out of him about how he feels and what he wants. He PASSIONATELY hates the whole thing. It's been necessary, sometimes, to get us out of deadlock, but it is so painful for me and utterly miserable for him. The idea of doing that in front of a stranger? He would just shut down. 100%.

It sounds like you're not ready to give up just yet but you do seem resigned that you and him can't have a loving marriage. So my suggestion is to be open to getting back to being a loving couple.
For instance, have you looked into attachment styles? There could be something there. Somatic therapy for his low mood? Again, there could be something there.
Wishing your family the best!

I really love this concept of 'parallel play'; it explains so much about how we used to enjoy ourselves as a couple - going to gigs, shows, and throwing parties, reading together, watching TV. A lot of that goes when you have kids, of course. And what I have always missed is what I really love best - deep, meaningful conversation. Which I think 'date nights' sort of set you up for which is why they feel so high pressure for us - at last, time alone to talk! ... And he has nothing to say to me, nothing to ask. It really highlights the cavern between us. Whereas this year we managed to go out to no less than TWO concerts together (no mean feat and OMG the COST of babysitting) but after both of those we were in a really good place. Fantastic vibe and actually great sex now I think about it. But it doesn't last.

That makes perfect sense, I can understand why you haven’t under the circumstances.

Do you think he wants to be with you or would he rather the relationship ended?

Have you tried writing to him? If you think he wants to be in a relationship with you still and talking isn’t working, you need to lay your cards on the table somehow. I imagine he shuts down and doesn’t really listen when you speak so having it written in black and white might work. You can even say you don’t expect a response from him, however you need him to understand how this is affecting you and how it’s starting to affect the children. He’ll feel defensive at first but maybe he’ll revisit the letter and look at it again once he’s calmer and just maybe take some of it onboard.

I wouldn't read too deeply into it. Kids make observations based on how they feel at the time and don't necessarily attach the emotions an adult would. Maybe he's just not very smiley as a person, she didn't say that was a bad thing.

Also out of curiosity what was his childhood like? His relationship with his parents and his parent’s relationship with each other?

This is so interesting because my sister came out as the hard as nails and need to control one.
It’s so so difficult with no clear answer and it sounds like you are thinking things through very carefully with the best interests of your children at heart. You sound a brilliant mum and I wish you all the best.

There is always this to bear in mind too. I'm a massive overthinker, whereas my DD is certainly of a more practical bent, so she may have just been saying exactly what she's seeing rather than expressing some deep underlying concern. I do need to be wary of painting my own emotional overwroughtness onto her.

Clearly you and I just grabbed the "emotional insecurity" short straw 😂 solidarity! Is she the older sister by any chance? I think it makes a difference...

Thank you so much for your kind words. I really am doing my best for them. And if and when they want to have their say on that, I will be ready to listen.

Well, his sole purpose in life isn't to keep women happy, either. He might be desperately unhappy or depressed. If a man told me to 'try and appear a little more upbeat' when I was bleakly unhappy, I'd tell to fuck off into oblivion.

As far as I can tell, a reasonably calm and prosperous family life with but with very low emotional engagement. He always says he doesn't really remember much of his childhood. Busy working-class-done-good father, SAHM, private school. As a family they are all very brisk and no-nonsense and hard-working, and don't talk about their feelings at all ever.

Op, I don't think you guys have anything to lose by seeking out some couples counselling.
You could end up being a lot more satisfied.
Even self help books like Fake It Till You Make It.

Your husband might be invested in giving it a good go.
He might settle for sincerely trying self help or couples Be Happier therapy rather than counselling by him self.

Just little games at the dinner table like everyone offering up the thing that day that made them the happiest, the most lucky, the most glad. The kids would see that their father also experiences cheerful times.

I wish you more contentment, Op; and hope you can instigate fun times and a more relaxed happy home.

A bit isolated. Work is good but I'm not challenged enough so get lazy (CF this hour on Mumsnet when I should be working); I have a good set of pals but rarely see them as we're all so busy and restricted by childcare. I have just started a really fun and exciting hobby (won't say what as outing!) which brings me into contact with lots of lovely amazing women. I do think this is good for me and is really lifting my mood.

While I agree with this to an extent, I do think at least a high priority for him should be ensuring his child's happiness.

I wouldn't be entirely convinced that remaining in this situation really is in your children's best interests. Your daughter has already made you aware that she's noticed.

I'm the daughter of a family who really suffered from the 'staying together for the sake of the children' maxim. It was a different situation, given my father was abusive (particularly toward me). But I know all-too well the atmosphere of a home like this - the temperature suddenly feeling 10 degrees warmer and lighter the moment the soul-sucking person is out of the room.

This isn't a good way to grow up, as I know from bitter personal experience.

You are a very intelligent and selfless mum OP. Many parents lazily fall into the convenient “what’s good for me is good for my kids” way of thinking.
Sometimes it’s true, and sometimes it’s not. An abusive situation is different to a ‘could be better’ situation.
Family life complicated, and you sound like you are bearing everyone’s wellbeing in mind, while keeping your children’s wellbeing uppermost.
I have a feeling your children will be okay while they have you looking out for them. x

You have had some great comments / advice on here & you put your feelings and your life into words so well, would writing a letter to him help? . No need for conversation then, and it gives him time to take it all in.

I hope you find a solution at some point that works for you all. You sound a really great Mum.

It's always a gamble leaving a relationship.

No one can predict what'll happen or the long term effect on any of you.

Improving the current situation sounds like the best short term plan. Would he go back to CBT for a more positive attitude?

Long term get your ducks in a row for a divorce in a decades time.

Well you're right but it is nice if we can consider the feelings of people we love and be attuned enough to notice and care when they are low and maybe attempt to lift them. This is her partner not just a stranger off the street.

I understand your reasons for staying OP, but personally I couldn't live like this.

My dh's positivity is the best thing about him. I couldn't ever be with a misery guts - it must be exhausting. Just reading your posts is making me gloomy!