To find what DC said really sad?

[Haemagoblin]

I was parking the car with my DD8 in the back, and making a bit of a hash of it. I laughed to DD "God I hope Daddy's not looking out the window, he'll be laughing at me!"

She replied "he wouldn't laugh - he doesn't even smile very much".

I find this so so sad. I mean she's not wrong, he's a bit of a gloomy person; but he does try to be a good dad, playfights with them and teases them and makes jokes,so I guess I didn't realise how much his naturally quite negative vibe was actually being picked up on by the children.

Should I talk to him about it? We are not in a very good place so I worry he'll see it as me getting at him - but if my kid had said something like that about me I'd want to know!

No not really.

Do you think the way they treated you has more to do with the difficulties you have suffered than how they treated each other? If they had been radiantly in love with each other but still stand offish with you, do you think that would have been better or worse?

It’s hard to say. My mum always worked shifts so was always tired or in bed. My dad was a “proper Yorkshireman” so in the pub when he wasn’t at work or home for his dinner so we didn’t really see either of them very much.

I heard the saying "better being from a broken home than in one".

It's also interesting that Mumsnet seems to run these two parallel conversations at all time:

1. If you're not 100% happy in your marriage you should leave you're doing a disservice to your children by staying.

2. If you're a single parent you shouldn't re-partner and especially not blend families while your children live at home, it's selfish, you're doing a disservice to your children by moving on.

OK I know that diagnosing over the Internet is not always helpful. But I really relate to your marriage and im also staying for the benefit of children and our family connection while kids are young.
My husband is an undiagnosed autistic man and from certain things you've described I would look at neurodivergence as a possibility.
Unexperessive facial responses, not being.able to.tell whether he is enjoying himself. Moody, always needing to find control in his life (better job.etc) to be happy.
Just in terms of my relationship, understanding my partner was autistic has changed much of my own resentment and allowed me to help our communication more and realise that things I.found.upsetting are not something he has much control over.
It's not a fix but understanding someone's needs is so helpful when.navigating a family together.

Life is too short up be living such a miserable life and making your kids suffer it too !

To be fair I don't find these statements antithetical. Both things are about prioritising the children over your own relationships. I just think (as a child whose parents did split) people overstate the virtues of separating in terms of the children's wellbeing. It is no guarantee of their lives being better, just different. And brings a lot of inherent negatives of its own. It can be the best, or the only safe choice. But not necessarily.

I didn't think it bears bearing in mind that if there are two grown adults who can't manage to compromise with each other in order to resolve their differences for their children, at least one of them probably has quite serious problems. Certainly the case with the two of us (both I think). That doesn't go away when you stop being together.

Oh he's 100% on the spectrum. I know it. He's not diagnosed and never will be but it's all there. As was His father I believe. His sister (who never launched and still lives at home with their mother in her late 30s) has recently been diagnosed.

I'm afraid I am not as nice a person as you in that knowing that has not made it easier for me - in fact it's made it harder as I've slowly come to accept that he will never "love" me in the sense that I mean love, it's just not in his emotional repertoire. He will never be curious about me, or be wondering how I'm feeling like I do about him all the time, it's just not there. It's meant the quest has stopped (if I just find the right way to communicate with him, if I just, if I just) and I'm left with the reality that this is what it is and the question is how well can I and my children live within that, if at all. It's incredibly sad actually.

I agree to an extent- but what I mean is people are so quick to rush in and present divorce as THE solution (divorce= everything better) even though they also believe (as do I) that romantic choices on the other side of divorce are significantly more complicated and difficult, and perhaps a post divorce life won't be so straightforward after all.

I understand that there's a backlash to the long long looooong western tradition of staying in miserable marriages as a woman, which was only upended in around the 1980s and 1990s, and I think people don't want to be seen to say to women "just put up with it". But I also think in presenting divorce as a straightforward solution to a messy life, people undersell how complicated and imperfect (for many, not all) any outcome will be.

I was thinking there was an ASD (him) ADHD (you) sounding dynamic, a very common set up.

Incidentally I suspect I am also undiagnosed ADHD (although that could also be PTSD or just general hyper emotional haplessness or just I'm getting caught up in the mania of the day for middle aged women, so I'm not confident to explore diagnosis - but I do use some of the tools from online articles and things anyway, as if it helps it doesn't really matter why).

Strangely this is a pairing I've seen a lot - 'ADHD' woman (hyper emotional, quick thinking, hyper verbal, disorganised) with 'autistic' man (low emotional affect, low communication, high control, sensory issues). I mean I suppose this is in part because the "typical" traits of ADHD and the "typical" traits for high-functioning autism map quite well onto the stereotypes of female and male behaviour quite well. But we also do seem to seek each other out! Which is strange because it's a bloody difficult combination.

Well, on the surface you can see the attraction, in fact you've described it well, because you each have some complementary abilities it "should" work. And you're each attracted to the person who can do the things you find difficult and fill the gap.

The problem is that it doesn't always make for a successful relationship in the long run. Because of couple dynamics, couples can end up polarising each other more. So that you might get more ADHD-ish because you're expecting him to do all the organisation side of life, while he might get more ASC-ish because you're doing all his emotional work for the kids. Neither of you have to push yourselves in those aspects because the other is picking up the slack. (Well that's an oversimplification but you see what I mean).

And the other risk is that in your different ways one of you really might not be able to meet the other one's needs. So that while you might be able to meet his needs for connection, and he meets your needs for someone to organise you, you have needs - really important needs for your own wellbeing - which he is never going to be able to meet.

Sorry I don't have answers. Just musing.

This is our dynamic exactly.

It has helped me to accept what is possible and what is not. For a long time I thought he could give me emotional support and chose not to. Now that I understand it's just not something he's capable of it has removed the resentment.

That doesn't mean it's not sad and lonely but I'm not beating my head against a brick wall.

When I need emotional support I go to my friends. As you say he's brilliant with practical support.

It's about compromises stemming from that initial choice of partner. And underneath it all there is love there.

You might find this thread useful:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5245372-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-14?page=4&reply=141796889

I can only go by the single parents I know and they are the happiest women I know.

I really don’t think you know what it would be like to live in a household where you can be happy and free with no one dictating your mood or putting a downer on everyday

How many times when he starts moaning Gabe you put up your hand and said “Not listening. If you see something you don’t like then go fix it otherwise keep quiet unless you have something positive to say”

Have you counted the times you adjust your speech patterns or not saying something so you don’t set him off

Do you understand that your children have learned to do the same thing

You say he is a great parent because he play fights, teases and tells jokes to his dc

If you are looking to the future where you are still together in 3 or 4 years time. I think you might start to have problems with your dc

The older one will be approaching her teenage years and what supposedly makes him a good father now isn’t going to work in a very short time.

That will be the time you find out how unhappy your choice to stay with their father has made them. I think the years of sweeping everything under the carpet and trying to keep the status quo could end up blowing up in your face and you end up eventually losing your adult children as they don’t want to come back to the miserable atmosphere in their family home

Can you not see that your children aren’t going to stay children. They are going to grow up and make their own choices about how they lead their lives based on doing the opposite of what made them unhappy growing up.

In 3 or 4 years time it will be a lot easier to make a decision to leave because my children wouldn't be mandated to a 50/50 arrangement that would destabilise their lives and leave them vulnerable. At least my eldest would be old enough to decide for herself how much contact she wants and on what terms.

If I have to choose between him or my kids when they're adults, it's not even a choice. It's them 100%.

I can forsee that they may resent me and avoid me for that reason, even if I'm not longer with their father. But that might also be the case if I upend their childhoods and leave them in a situation I couldn't face myself 50% of the time.

No advice OP, but I just want to commend you for your exceptionally thoughtful analysis of your situation, and for making your children the priority in your decision making.
It is rare on MN to see such nuanced thinking.

Yeap, all those things. I am diagnosed adhd and my background is being a fixer and I learnt long ago that my needs are wrapped arojnd meeting other people's needs. And yes, understanding ND differences helps me to take things less personally but at the same time I had to go through a stage of realising that no amount of my expert Fixing was going to change the fundamentals.
And it is a cold and brutal reality to have to bump up against.
What I find especially hard is that he will never know how much of my own self, energy, resources I put into him and our relationship and our parenting everyday. He will never see or fully understand or truly love me for it either.
He does appreciate it, as im extremely vocal about everything I feel (part of the problem too no doubt).
But right now with 3 children, the youngest being 6 and with their own ND spiciness , its what's needed.
Doesn't mean I don't question it on a frequent basis.

I do however talk about all our differences with our children. So I will express that Papa struggles with noise because of his different brain. But its not because of them and they haven't done anything wrong and help them to not feel burdened by his inability and give them understanding rather than confusion.
But Jesus man. Its not a damn picnic.

OP, I haven't read the whole thread here and I am sure that I will not be the first person to suggest couples counselling - I might be the first person to offer a different perspective though.
My ex (wife actually, we are both female but it makes no difference to this) and I were in EXACTLY the same position as you and your DH two years ago. She had lived through the full 80s divorced parents / unsuitable parental partners / step parents and step siblings nightmare and I had a traumatic relationship with my own parents. We had essentially vowed to stay together for the DC even though we were both miserable and resentment was growing day by day.

As a last ditched attempt we went to couples therapy. It did not save our marriage in any way! It did however, help us to communicate and understand each other, to lose the resentment and (most of) the anger and to build a very amicable divorce from those lessons. We divorced a year ago and have both entered into new relationships. We are both happy. We are pretty much friends TBH. Our DC are very happy, much happier than they were and we work as a team to parent them (which we didn't before).

I am not saying that this is definitely the best solution for you - but our situations sound so startlingly similar that I wanted to share my own experience.

To add as well - we are both a lot happier. I was worried about the time that DC would spend alone with ex as she was miserable and occasionally struggled with anger issues. She has had to work on herself without me there to pick up the pieces, she is happy and she is now a good parent for our DC.

Really interesting point about locking each other in our ND tendencies because you come to lean on the others strong suit and feel less and less capable.
I think this is true.
I also find I've had to push myself to reveal more of what makes me happy and create my life on that basis, which I've now found to be my super strength. And I'm grateful for that.
Its also January. Nothing positive happens this deep in.winter. And when it does, it still feels less so, because its bloody January.

Aren’t you doing exactly what your husband does

In 3-4 years this will happen and the likelyhood is in 3-4 years time something will happen and what you should have done 3-4 years before will be put off again and again

There will always be reasons to not do something that might be hard but the right thing to do

The fact you are worried and are staying in a relationship that is making no one happy because you don’t want your children to be subjected to their dads moodiness (after calling him a great father) suggests that he isn’t a great dad but one who could put the dc in danger

If he is a great dad then maybe he will be a great dad for those 3 days per week in which case everyone is happier