To find what DC said really sad?

[Haemagoblin]

I was parking the car with my DD8 in the back, and making a bit of a hash of it. I laughed to DD "God I hope Daddy's not looking out the window, he'll be laughing at me!"

She replied "he wouldn't laugh - he doesn't even smile very much".

I find this so so sad. I mean she's not wrong, he's a bit of a gloomy person; but he does try to be a good dad, playfights with them and teases them and makes jokes,so I guess I didn't realise how much his naturally quite negative vibe was actually being picked up on by the children.

Should I talk to him about it? We are not in a very good place so I worry he'll see it as me getting at him - but if my kid had said something like that about me I'd want to know!

Well they always choose me if it's a choice. But whether that's because they don't enjoy his company or because lots of small children favour their mothers, who knows?

if someone is relentlessly fucking miserable, negative and angry Op and you think they’d be happier apart - I think safe to presume that they would be happier apart.

however you won’t make the move unless he does so for the time being at least - all the best enduring this. Sounds very tough for everyone

Would he go back to therapy for his general mood? Or couples therapy for both of you?

If you've decided to stay in the relationship, at least in the medium term, it's worth a try?

Life is too short OP, it really is.
If it’s bad, and been bad for a while, take steps to change it. Life with a man who needs anger management is not fun, been there, done that.
I do wonder what else your 8 year would say if they had the opportunity.

I’d be surprised if he was miserable, negative and grumpy with them… and you didn’t know about it

anyway I have a train to catch! All the best

I had a similar situation.

I chose to stay.

It's not a simple as what you model for your kids.

People aren't perfect. People aren't even good a lot of the time. But children form attachments to their parents and love them even though they aren't good.

Breaking those attachments by divorcing can lead to quite a lot of difficulties for the children even if mum and dad are separately happier.

It's one of the reasons courts try to keep contact with both parents as children do suffer if the attachments are broken.

If you leave, he might step up and be a better parent. Or he might be more aggressive, and the children scared of him but without you to mediate. I'm a teacher and I've taught plenty of kids who were scared to go to their dads.

It's not obvious that 50% happy and 50% shit is better than 100% mildly crap.

It is so refreshing to read someone who gets it and who rigorously and honestly looks at the scenarios. The whole 'happy parents = happy children' really is quite facile, apart from anything else, you have zero control of the other parents state of mind, how they conduct themselves, etc. At least in the framework of a marriage, you have SOME leverage or even right to confront them. I completely get why you are staying in the marriage for now. You don't have to do anything today, tomorrow or indeed ever. This is very complicated, nuanced and yes, life altering for everyone. My advice, though I think you have more insight than most, is to just try and not get locked in the scenario too much, try and enjoy life yourself, your friends, work etc., continue to be a good and open mum and hopefully clarity will come with time.

Or maybe he would be a lot happier parent if you split, that could benefit your girls far more than staying together ‘for the kids’. You could be a lot happier. I understand I didn’t see the other side, but I wouldn’t want to set my girls an example that you stay in an unhappy marriage. Life is short; my friend is dying way too soon and spent most of her life in an unhappy situation. One day you’ll look back and wonder why you wasted the best years of your life in this situation. You just assume if you split it will be worse for the kids but you could both be much happier. Things are only going to get worse and your kids are noticing already.

I guess I wonder how that works in his relationships where he isn't the dependent. How does he express joy and pleasure in his spouse, or his kids? How do they know they make him happy and bring him joy

Sorry, I may have missed it as you may have provided the answer to someone else, but your question didn’t include the response to ‘is this a change - had he always lagged/smiled and now stopped, or he never did?

As for your question to me, it seems odd to me that the someone could only equate joy and pleasure by smiling and laughing? Surely, you can pick up from the words someone says, and their actions whether they are happy? If you get to know someone properly then I don’t see how it’s any different to how I can tell my child is happy, it’s in what they say and do. Similarly, I’ve worked with a few people and have some acquaintances I’ve never seen smile/laugh, but I can tell from what they say and do whether they are ‘happy’ with a situation.

He's always been like this but it's worsened over time. To head off the inevitable "then why did you..." question, he is incredibly driven and ambitious, and his view was always that he'd be happy when x happened - when he got a better job, when we had a proper house, when we made a bit more money, when he had a bit more free time, etc etc. I have realised over time that whatever we achieve, he is always dissatisfied and there's always something else that is needed. I find it a relentless and unhappy way to live; but I think for him it's just what life is about - continuous optimisation towards a state of perfection. So there's always something to be annoyed about - the fact it's raining, something in the house needing fixing, over the road's recycle bag had takeaway remnants in it so has been gutted by foxes and there's crap all over the street, traffic is looking bad on the app, his old job didn't pay enough, his new job doesn't let him work at home as much as his old job, etc etc. Just constant dissatisfaction and gloominess. It wears me down because after frankly quite a difficult life all I want is to be happy and content, and from my perspective we have everything and the only thing stopping us being blissfully happy is him refusing to be so. But I know that is a perspective born of frustration and not a fair assessment that includes his pov.

I mean, this advice isn't far from : when was the last time you wore lingerie for him and is your cooking up to scratch? It isn't the 1950s.

The only question there is whether he is better when I'm not there making him unhappy, but based on how much the kids prefer to be with me I'd guess not. Obviously I can't check this

Go away for 48 hours ? See what transpires ?

Do it as an investigative experiment?

I'd definitely want to know how the kids cope/feel when I'm not there for an extended period of time

I just want to say it's SO refreshing to find a poster on Mumsnet who prioritises what's best for their children over their own happiness: so many parents on here seem to think nothing of breaking up their children's family just so they can get a new boyfriend/girlfriend.

Please do leave him once your youngest reaches 18; until then, do everything you can to make yourself happy as an individual, and your children happy, of course.

I have realised over time that whatever we achieve, he is always dissatisfied and there's always something else that is needed. I find it a relentless and unhappy way to live; but I think for him it's just what life is about - continuous optimisation towards a state of perfection

He won't change. I know you know that

Can you explain it so that the children understand? So that they are aware that Dad is an Eeyore but not a bad person and just wants everything to be perfectly perfect which life rarely is (thank goodness)

I say that as a precursor to you leaving. So that when the kids spend time with him alone, they know why he's miserable

Also be aware, as the kids get older , they may well call DH out for his personality, to his face

Sounds very much like my ex in the end he thought he would get a better partner so the decision was taken out of my hands. Unfortunately our child is very much a chip off the old block and full of woe.

This is SUCH a good point

I ended my marriage when my daughter was 7 - 20 years ago

Her Dad and I are still on friendly terms

She will STILL say to me after shes seen him, a couple of times a year, "I can so see why you divorced Daddy"

And she'll describe some of her guy friends "oh he's lovely, Mum, but just like Daddy"

Honestly OP..... try not to get too entrenched in "I can't leave because of the children" mode

Having read all your posts, I really am in awe of you, @Haemagoblin. You are so incredibly fair and reasonable, and are clearly an excellent mother.

I genuinely do agree with you that staying in your marriage is what's best for your children for now, but if the situation changes (e.g. he begins to demonstrate anger again), then you should absolutely feel confident in making the decision to leave him.

When your children are adults, I hope you find someone who makes you happy.

It's possible to end a marriage NOT for a new boyfriend AND have happy and fulfilled children

You're aware that the two aren't mutually exclusive?

It may be possible, but I wouldn't say it's common.

You're probably right. It's probably not something which happens in every marriage break up

I think my point is that it IS possible

Staying in the marriage seems like a sensible thing for now. So what are the options to make things easier for you and for the kids. Do you have a hobby that would take you out of the house for a full evening a week and give you time to be happy and off duty? Can you and the kids sometimes take short trips without DH ? Can you live separately within the same household?

i just wanted to say thanks to everyone on this thread as I’m in a similar position and I’ve found it very helpful

OP, I'm sorry you're unhappy and that he isn't the person you need.

I think people saying leave him and the children will be happier are missing the point though. Even amicable divorce damages children really badly. I don't think there's an easy solution and ultimately it sounds like that will happen in the end regardless.

I completely agree with this op. Splitting up is a huge risk ( mine did and it was shit for loads of reasons). Where there is no abuse then children living with both their parents is best. Research bears this out also I believe.

he is miserable! So what… so are loads of people. The kids will see him for who he is. They will also see he loves them and tries. They will accept him and because you are so reflective they will probably be as well. They will be able to learn from him with your guidance… as in what if they inherit the depression gene they will see what happens if they don’t treat it etc.

you and the kids just get on with your lives and he can be miserable in the background. Much better than being skint, moving between houses, having step parents and blended families etc.

You are a very thoughtful and conscientious person, OP, and a very loving mother. I’ve been struck by the comments on this thread too. PP’s various experiences of unhappy marriages (their own or their parents’) either staying together or divorcing. The good and bad results of either route.

I’ve always been in the “Leave him, to save yourself and DC” camp, having grown up in an unhappy household. My parents were both good people, but my siblings and I all inherited their unhappiness and have all struggled with depression and relationship difficulties.

Reading this thoughtful thread has opened my eyes more to the difficulties either way.

I’m still inclined to say if he was really a good father he’d make more effort. I can’t bear to think of any child growing up in the crushing atmosphere of a sad and conflicted marriage. When I think of my childhood home I can almost see despair oozing out of the walls.

I wish the best of luck to you and all struggling parents doing their best, also to their children.