Should the father of the 4 Hoath boys also be charged with manslaughter?

[Inkyblue123]

Just that really - he abandoned those 4 kids to the care of someone he knew had psychiatric problems and living in filth.once again the judicial system punished a women while overlooking the broader systematic failures and the responsibilities of others.
YANBU - he should stand trial
YABU - he’s not responsible for this tragedy

Why have kids then?
,it's not compulsory they weren't in a Stable relationship or married were they?
Usual story, sex and then people move on.
They just wanted a shag plain and simple.
Sort yourselves out. God it makes me sick as well. Smoking heavily around the children and leaving tea lights around and rubbish.

These are the consequences of all those things combined.

Why have kids then?
,it's not compulsory they weren't in a Stable relationship or married were they?
Usual story, sex and then people move on.
They just wanted a shag plain and simple.

Are you talking about him or her?

Having kids isn’t compulsory but many of us don’t know how hard it is until you’re in the thick of it. And two sets of twins is quite a lot of work <understatement>

Tbh if you go down that path, then shouldn’t all the adults in the childrens’ lives be held accountable too? Grandparents, aunts, uncles. Every one of them if in the childrens’ lives could have reported the situation to the authorities, but probably didn’t.

Nobody's mentioned the landlord why were the lights not working or the toilet?

Both.

In 1995 I dropped my children then aged 6 and 4 with their dad at 10am. He was sober by 3pm he took them to the doctor's as DD was poorly (fine when I dropped her off), they didn't have an appointment so as he was very drunk at this point he threatened to kill the doctor and receptionist if they didn't see her. The police came didn't arrest him took the children off him brought them to me at work and told me that if I ever took my kids to him again when he was drunk I would be prosecuted.
As I said he wasn't drunk he chose to get drunk DD became ill with her asthma because of his smoking.
I always put the treatment of me in this down to misogynistic policing. He just got told to go home. Not charged with anything.

So I agree with the OPs sentiment the absent parents behaviour should be looked at and abandonment should be accountable.
This case is absolutely tragic and I wonder how much effect the lockdowns had on the mother seeing as the boys died in December 2021.
RIP poor little boys together forever.

The judge can and should make some pithy remarks about the DC RIP having been abandoned once already.

Beyond tragic, always there are other family stating their grief, where were they when the mother was struggling, clearly very mentally unwell.
The house was filled with rubbish to the extent the bathroom couldn't be used; that's didn't happen overnight.

I have some friends, a couple who had a three year old and then had twins. They were wonderful parents, a real team who were devoted to their three under fives and I remember them being on their knees with exhaustion. That is with both parents who were fully present physically and emotionally. I cannot comprehend coping alone with two sets of very young twins. I am not in any way excusing the mother or seeking to mitigate the horror of what happened to those little boys, but I can begin to guess the strain she must have been under

I live locally, and I recall reading the early news reports about the fire.

This article states the father was aware the mother had left the children alone briefly before (but clarifies that he was not aware of them being left for long periods of time):

https://www.mylondon.news/news/transport/dad-4-boys-killed-sutton-30065856#amp-readmore-target

And this article says the father had more children with his new partner, but he "would have been over in a shot if she needed someone to look after the boys": https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17077363/sutton-fire-mum-jeered-angry-crowd-heartbroken-dad/

I don't know enough about the case to say how culpable he was in allowing his sons to live in such circumstances but I do wonder if he and his family could have done more to protect them.
However, he is not responsible for their deaths

I have experienced good relationships with health visitors many times but I think in 2021 they weren't getting face to face meetings etc due to COVID restrictions/backlog. Even just the basics have broken down in this country.

I had something similar happen in 1999

It was court ordered that I drop my 2 dc (aged 3 and 2 at the time) to their fathers house (which I did) for about 10am

He was stone cold sober,not off his face etc

By about half 3,I had the police on my doorstep,with a social worker and my dc

He was off his face on god knows what and the kids where found wandering around the gated area-he was unconscious in the corner

I was told if I allowed them anywhere near him again,I'd not only lose them,I'd be up on a charge of neglect

The problem was,I was going to be in trouble for breaching the court order if I stopped
taking them to him-I could have gone to prison (as it was,the female judge listened to me and he got supervised visits and he soon lost interest in them-thank god)

The police and social services couldn't have cared less about this-just kept repeating that I'd be the one in trouble if I allowed him near my kids

All that happened to him was a trip to hospital-nothing more

No police arresting him,no social worker threatening him,nobody telling him that taking drugs around kids was a bad idea-i was to blame and that was the end of that

This poor woman-she must have been at the end of her rope with 4 kids and mental health issues with no support

She made a bloody big mistake and I don't believe for one minute that the father or his family would have stepped up and helped if she'd asked-she was crying out for help

Quick enough to soak up all the likes and sympathy on sm though

presumably your husband has a paper trail to prove that he has done his best to be involved, which would count in his favour

The judge's sentencing remarks can be viewed online and give a fuller picture - https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/rex-v-deveca-rose/

They were at one point. At one point she had newborns and one year olds. The next year she had one year olds and two year olds.

she is clearly at fault, but oh my gosh, reflect on that, she had four babies under two. That surely would break even the best resourced family, never mind a single mother living in poverty.

she must have been totally overwhelmed, depressed, and making very poor decisions.

She failed her children but she and they were failed by a lot of other people.

Exactly that. Heartbreaking situation.
Honestly I hope they can review her sentence somehow. The responsibility for not letting this situation get so dangerous feels so much more collective.

The mum gets ten years prison punishment for being completely unable to cope in a way that is completely predictable. She had already said she couldn’t cope, and she asked for help from her GP. None came. Social services must have known about the family. What help did she actually get?

We don’t know how involved the father and his family were, nor if she had any wider family or if they were involved, but the fathers family public statements don’t mention how they were helping the mum to care for the kids very regularly. It’s painful to think of how failed these young kids were.

The mum gets ten years prison punishment for being completely unable to cope in a way that is completely predictable
This is unbelievable! She didn't get 10 years because of actions directly linked with her not caring!

She got 10 years because she left 4 children alone to go shopping for unnecessary items. That's nothing to do with not caring. That's just plain irresponsible behaviour that is not defensible.

It is no different to overworked and srressed parents who leave their kids sleeping in the car so they have an hour break and find the child dead from the heat.

Do you find this excusable if the parent is overwhelmed?

I agree both made bad decisions from the outset. But he walked away, doubling the burden of their joint bad decisions on her. She stepped up, took 100% responsibility for their joint bad decisions and is now taking 100% of the blame.

Do we know that he is the one who walked away? Everyday on MN we read threads where posters are advised kick their useless partners and that no matter the hardwork, it's better for the kids. Could that have potentially be similar?

No, we know they separated when the younger twins were 6 months and he soon had kids with another partner. But either way, anyone worth their salt would be proactive about getting a support system in place, not saying oh well if she'd asked I'd have popped round to help

Edit: and if he was a shitty enough partner that splitting to be alone with 4 infants was the better option, well, that says a lot about him too

So many assumptions portraying him as the bad guy and her a poor victim of circumstances without any evidence of either.

That's why MN is being accused of lacking Impartiality and being sexist.

Nobody knows the circumstances and what parent either of them were. All we really know is that a mum left 4 children 4 and younger alone to go and buy non essential products. Everything else is pure speculation.

There was a previous thread about this case (before the trial) as I remember it the two sets of twins had different fathers?