Axel Rudakubana

[Dylanxoxo]

I haven't seen anything in articles I have read about Axel Rudakubana today about a mental health assessment. His behaviour is so extreme, that it is difficult not to suspect he is suffering from an untreated mental health condition. Does anyone else think that mental illness may be at the root of his horrific crimes?

I agree with your latter point that it would be difficult for the public to hear that someone like this is deemed 'mentally ill', just look at the theoretical outrage on here from simply discussing it

I wouldnt say he is the wrong colour for a MH defense, we know that people of colour are over represented (read - over diagnosed) with in MH services.

Are you saying he shouldn’t be punished?

What were the missed opportunities that would have worked?

What intervention do you mean?

Im yet to hear anything on any of these threads that would make a difference to people like this they are mainly males but not always.

The trajectory is usually that a child is excluded at school, then sent to another school or a PRU, then excluded from the PRU, then long gaps in education because no school will take him. Do you want your child in a classroom with him? Do you want to teach someone like this?
So where does he go for school? That means then he is at home nearly all the time, perhaps parents work or cant supervise him due to being fearful of his violence, so then he is given 'online tuition', an hour a week or so, but that means he has to be on the internet and so is likely to spend a lot of time on the internet, watching god knows what.

Thats without whatever else might be going on

I don't think they are, but they hold a grudge against prisoners for crimes against women and girls, even if they've done similar themselves. I had a friend years ago who was in and out of jail and he said one of the worst bits was that you pretty much HAD to participate in beating the daylights out of anyone who admitted they were in for rape or DV, or the other prisoners would do the same to you. There's a reason that prisons have special wings for paedophiles, and the chances are he'll also be separated from other prisoners, but there's a likelihood they'll get to him eventually.

Ive worked with lots of children who have committed similar or worse crimes. They are rarely charged, certainly wouldnt be for carrying a knife. The attack might have been or had potential, but usually its dealt with by way of restorative approaches or NFA, if there is a charge and resulting prosecution, you can be sure the child's solicitor will fight to bring out every piece of evidence of disorders (in this case he had ASD) and therefore NFA, if that doesnt happen and prosecution continues and the child is guilty, its usually a referral order being made

What do you think happens then? Nothing!

You dont have be unfit to plead for someone to have MH issues.

The point is, a crime doesnt have to be down to criminal insanity, to discount that someone isnt mentally right. He isnt mentally right is he?

That's not what we are debating.

There was no mental health issues found by professionals who know what they're doing. Trying to give him one is only strengthening his case.

He's evil, and that's that.

Well I suppose I would apply that logic to the explanation that someone is 'evil'

I have a mental illness but Im of a sound mind. I suffer an illness but Im compos mentis, I make informed choices and know what Im doing day to day. The two are not mutually exclusive

The problem why we dont know what to call it is that there has developed such a narrow definition of MH illness or disorder that there is nothing that really fits with someone like this.

But like others have said, he isnt mentally right, probably lots of layers of why that is, but he isnt like you and me (assuming you are not like him!)

Not yet but it's coming in the next few years unfortunately with the new mental health act and so things will get much worse.
Currently there just has to be 'appropriate treatment available' It doesn't have to actually work for them or they may be refusing the intervention, for example, therapy

To quote the silence of the lambs ‘there’s not a name for what he is’

Strengthening his case!

What case is that?

He plead guilty, hes pleased with what he did, he couldnt give a stuff about consequences, he isnt coming out ever. There isnt a 'case'.

I dont personally believe in evil, I think that gives an opt out to work out how we prevent these things, having very very tight definitions of what is an illness or disorder has been unhelpful in my view over the past 40 years (and more but thats how far back my work goes in this field) because there now isnt a descriptor for him or strategies or theories about how to manage this type of behaviour.

I've seen so much around extremism and mental illness, and honestly I just think some people are bad. Evil. There's no rhyme or reason.

Maybe tighter immigration could have saved those girls.

But I compare actions like this to other serial/mass murderers. Take Ted Bundy walking into that sorority and murdering/harming multiple girls in one night.

Tighter immigration laws in America wouldn't have saved them. He was fit to stand trial and be a "normal" member of society to everyone else.

Just evil.

If a judge were to disregard mitigation, the sentence would be appealed. Presumably you don't want a lesser sentence?
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/html-publication/item/aggravating-and-mitigating-factors-in-sentencing-guidelines-and-their-expanded-explanations-research-report/

He was receiving mental health treatment at Alder Hey hospital from 2019 until February of last year when he stopped engaging with it.

Wrong terminology I guess. Giving him airtime, allowing people to discuss the ifs and buts and what's about how he got there, him being given help.

He deserves to be locked up amd never spoken of again. I'm sure in the cold light of day I would maybe be more likely to take your point in board but not one day after those details.

That said, you can't manage the behaviour of someone who wants to murder children. Only one place for him, but sadly we have to pay for him to live another however many years

He pleaded guilty and was sentenced to fifty years in prison. He doesn't have a case.

I've already addressed this with the other poster.

Do we know what his parents did, like after getting him out the taxi to kill did his dad report him?
After he rang child line and had to be restrained in class etc.

At hospital?

I read it as being under the Alder Hey NHS trust so that would be CAMHS, being under CAMHS for that time

And that can mean a whole myriad of things, like simply being reviewed for ASD once in a while, perhaps they offered the odd appointment, did he attend or not, did parents attend, were parents even offered appointments.

I cant tell you the number of kids that are 'open' to CAMHS, virtually in name only. It means nothing

Perhaps Im being unfair to CAMHS and they were giving him regular psychotherapy or making regular referrals for MHA assessments.

You know the inquiry will find multiple systemic failures:

1. Prevent - dismissed due to no ideological motive
2. police - his own parents phoned 4 times...
3. discharging mh patients that stop engaging (which ideally would trigger the opposite)
4. no action after being found with knife
5. no joined up response across services

Etc.

@soupfiend v depressing that the knife offences wouldn't trigger anything...

It will be interesting to see what the tone will be.

Its unpalatable to think that there is little (apart from locking up people who havent actually done anything yet) that can be done to stop this sort of thing

So its better for us to believe that there was systemic failure, because that implies there are ways and means to have prevented this, but by failure, we didnt manage it. It suggests that all the right services and support are there, and can protect us. I debate that

This thread has largely concluded that he had no and has no MH illness or condition. And yet one of your points is that someone engaging with MH services shouldnt be allowed to opt out and that should trigger the opposite (ie forced engagement I think you are implying?)
And yet the vast majority of people think he didnt have MH issues so what would the engagement be for, to do what with?

The police have a strong policy of not dealing with social issues, behavioural issues, MH issues. Lots of childrens behaviour which is violent is considered either behavioural or MH. CAMHS usually disagree and say its behavioural. While parents are ringing their hands, neighbours and bystanders would say the behaviour is criminal behaviour and should be dealt with via youth justice.

So round and round it goes.

The tone will be interesting.

I agree to an extent @soupfiend inquiries are like us looking for reasons people got a disease so we can convince ourselves it won't happen to us/won't happen again.m, and politicians love them as it looks decisive.

Look at Grenfell - and yet we have a govt who wants to build build build and cut 'red tape' to do so.

Generally, isn't it a problem that mental health services give up if people stop engaging? It certainly doesn't point to them being healthy...

I guess what a lot of people are thinking is that he's probably, like a lot of violent criminals, incurably distorted of thought, so where does the buck stop?

No, just evil to the bone.

It's more complicated than this.
Black people are under represented in outpatient settings, but over represented in inpatient settings. Possible reasons have often been speculated but still remain poorly understood.

Are you suggesting that a diagnosis would pardon his actions?