To agree with this article on flaking

[ByGreenBiscuit]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/jan/07/flaking-out-of-social-plans

specifically, agreeing with the bit that says flaking is so much more common now, and with the people that say flaking is something we should take more seriously and do less of, that we have all started fetishising introversion a bit too much (I say this as someone who does this a lot themselves) and also that it is self-destructive and erodes our friendships.

It's annoying that the article doesn't distinguish clearly between flaking as a habitual behaviour, and being an introvert. I don't think introverts are more flakey than anyone else - if anything, an introvert is more likely to know their limitations and decline invitations as soon as they are offered.

Some people on this thread are also failing to make the distinction. Quoting the thread about Disney-in-a-day and the races-as-a-vegan - neither of those posters are planning to drop out at the last minute, they're simply looking for advice on whether they should accept an invitation they won't enjoy for the sake of friendship.

Conversely, on another thread about what excuse to use to decline work drinks, advice was blithely given to use 'last minute illness or emergency' to drop out on the day.

Flakiness is shitty, but it's not the preserve of introverts - just as likely to be done by extroverts who get a better offer.

@BrightYellowDaffodil

Throw in stuff like "sleep-maxxing" (where the concept is to optimise one's sleep so that you're always fully rested, but ends up with people living their lives round sleep) and "self care" it seems like life is being lived...for what? To be rested and cocooned but never actually do anything.

So glad someone has said this. Its basically a pseudo scientific manifesto for being lazy and unmotivated. It is fetishisation of inertia. What's the point of all this "self care" if you have a meltdown at the works do because "too peopley".

You see all these threads about people who need 10 hours sleep a night or they "can't function". If you need 10 hours sleep a night (and excluding illness) it is very likely just because you have trained your body to need a load of sleep. Drop your sleep requirements and your body will adjust.

At risk of sounding like an old windbag I worry that this "self care" all makes people very lacking in resilience and is turning our society a bit decadent. If people fighting in WW2 or on the front lines in hospitals in COVID had needed ten hours sleep a night to function they would have come unstuck pretty quickly.

I do remember about 15 years ago a friend started dating someone (they are now married) who was obsessed with Myers briggs tests and introversion etc. My friend, the most gregarious person I knew, decided she like her boyfriend was also introverted, that pretending to be extroverted was the source of all her problems, and that actually she wanted to stay at home all weekend watching movies as ‘self-care’ to honour her introversion.

I remember being quite surprised as she was such a social butterfly, and years later her life is extremely small - she’s lost contact with pretty much all of her uni friends and is very much focused on her ‘little family’. Moved far away and is now out of touch with all friends. I find it very sad on her behalf as when I have seen her, she has seemed so much sadder than she used to be, and tbh I think her husband is part of the issue - I believe he is quite controlling and has convinced her she wants a smaller life because of this ‘introversion’, almost like a cult. He’s always on some weird diet, or taking 20 vitamin c tablets a day, or having some kind of mysterious illness that means she has to do the housework. Oh and he’s a vicar… so believes he can do no wrong either and that anyone not in agreement with his way of seeing things is on the path of the devil!

@SevenWeeks

It's annoying that the article doesn't distinguish clearly between flaking as a habitual behaviour, and being an introvert. I don't think introverts are more flakey than anyone else - if anything, an introvert is more likely to know their limitations and decline invitations as soon as they are offered.

That's completely true, but the problem is that a lot of people have used "introversion" (which usually isn't true introversion) as a cover story for flakiness so a lot of us have been quite cynical listening to people bang on about how they can't do anything because of their introversion.

Agree with this.

We had a family wedding recently and my neice, who is lovely but 19 and really lacking in resilience, said she wouldn’t come without a friend there as moral support because she was feeling anxious and sad as she’d had a breakup about a month before. This created a huge drama as invites were limited and of course my brother wasn’t going to allow a stranger at his wedding in front of someone he’s never met. Even my sister kicked up a stink on her daughters behalf!

it was touch and go as to whether she would come until the day. She did, but she broke down in the church which was sad. I did feel a bit angry tho - felt like needless drama and attention, at that age I was going through a huge amount of trauma and abuse but would have sucked it up for someone’s big day!

anyway she ended up getting over it and having a lovely time. I found the whole thing quite annoying as it made the day about her and not the bride and groom. I probably sound selfish but I just feel my sympathy is running out as this seems to be a running theme with her! Same happened at Christmas - she didn’t come and her mum felt she needed to stay with her at home as she was worried about her. And the next day she was posting pouty gym pics and out with her mates, so it can’t be that bad! It feels like she weaponises anxiety (threatening to harm herself etc) as a control thing - I’m sure unconsciously, but it seems to almost be a trend now at that age

@ByGreenBiscuit

I completely agree about the cultishness.

The "introversion" cult seems to have really taken off after COVID (which is logical because many people lost their social muscle). But there's a misogynistic undertow to the idea that its preferable to retreat into the family and eschew the pleasures of socialising with other people. The "my little family" thing is really sinister. It gives me the chills when people post about this.

If they're dropping out at the last minute, absolutely. But people shouldn't be judged at a societal level for declining invitations in a timely way, whatever the reason. I say 'at a societal level' meaning that, of course, it's reasonable for an individual, say, to judge a friend who never wants to meet up, and act accordingly.

I'm not a flaker BUT I am someone who absolutely hates making plans, very far in advance.

It also puts me off people. I just want to do what I feel like doing that day, unless it's a very important thing - like a birthday or a wedding.

I prefer a couple of days notice or max a week for stuff like a dinner or lunch or coffee.

Unless of course you need to book tickets bla bla bla.

But for something like a simple lunch or dinner, I prefer just to see if friends are free a few days before. Yeah, I know often people aren't free a few days before, but I'll take the chance. I hate being all booked up. There's nothing worse for me.

It ends up "damaging" genuine introverts.

Most MN posters who claim they are introverts aren't. They are either socially anxious or just dislike socialising.

Introverts love seeing their friends, but need time to wind down between social events. That's all.

Yes, exactly. And I think 'losing your social muscle' is actually a good way of thinking about it, in the sense that we acknowledge that muscle loss is a bad thing physiologically, and exercise is necessary to keep muscles active. The same is absolutely true of social muscle -- use it or lose it. And if you have lost it, whether because of Covid, illness, bereavement or whatever, of course the first few times you start socially exercising again are going to be difficult because you've lost fitness. So start small and be realistic, but don't stop because it feels 'uncomfortable' or 'too hard'.

@SevenWeeks I don't think anyone is judging people who decline invitations, people can do what they like. Its more the "Oh I really wanted to come but I was feeling really drained and tired after a hard week at work and I needed the self care, I'm an introvert and I need ten hours of sleep and find being around people really draining," kind of thing.

Which used to be frowned upon but these days seems to be tolerated or actively encouraged because "introversion". And "self care".

Totally. Most of them are just people who are very bad at making friends and have convinced themselves they "hate people" or "don't need people" because the truth is too painful to face.

Actual introverts are a completely different species.

I know what you mean, it can feel stressful having a full diary. I don’t think there’s any harm in your approach - better to not commit than commit and flake!

This is true I think.
I'm a bit older and don't really recognise the flakey thing as having got worse. My ex is the only flakey person I know.
I think the older version of this was the friend who was always very late. Like half an hour or more. I have several of these. You have to plan so you're not reliant on them otherwise it's extremely annoying.

I do think too much phone use is an easier but ultimately less rewarding way to spend time. Those who grew up with constant phone use probably have differently wired brains in terms of valuing friendships.

I’d not thought of it from a misogynistic pov but you are right - it’s the perfect control mechanism. It also does seem to be mostly women that are talking about self-care and wanting to stay home to do face masks and bake?! I don’t think I’ve seen men do the same in general.

I agree. I think as well that they are on their phones so much it’s probably difficult to even notice they are missing out on social relationships.

I lived with a family with a 15 year old boy a few years ago and I remember him being so addicted to his phone he would be scrolling whilst standing doing a wee. I know this because I walked in on him more than once doing it - he was so in his own world he wouldn’t even close the door!

The post about @ByGreenBiscuit‘s niece made me realise something else: a lot of this ”announcing self-care” and dropping out at the last minute because [insert flake reason here] all seems very attention seeking and demanding to be the centre of attention.

@ByGreenBiscuit

I’d not thought of it from a misogynistic pov but you are right - it’s the perfect control mechanism. It also does seem to be mostly women that are talking about self-care and wanting to stay home to do face masks and bake?!

I'm not sure its explicitly misogynistic, although its definitely a useful control lever for controlling men, but it feels like a bit of a backlash against the 90s and 00s when young women really embraced socialising. That was the generation of Sex in the City, Desperate Housewives, the tail end of the ladette movement etc. All celebrating the idea of young women being single, financially independent and sexually licentious. There's lots wrong with this obviously, but it was at least outward-looking and optimistic.

The current mood seems much more inward-looking: people seem much more loathe to go out and almost suspicious of the idea of young people having a laugh with other young people. There are threads on here every day from people posting about how much they dread going to their work party or a hen party or whatever and seemingly wanting to embrace time spent at home with their spouse and children and eschew everything else. And of course the dreadful Trad Wife stuff and the cleaning influencers and all the rest of it.

This is probably in large part due to money: people are much poorer than they were 20 years ago and going out is prohibitively expensive. But it also feels like a reaction against "too much" freedom and it feels quite gendered.

Very true. I’m glad I did my 20s in the ladette era. It was awfully misogynistic in its own way but at least I had a lot of fun, even if my liver doesn’t agree! I feel for the teenagers now getting social kudos from gym selfies. I would have thought that was so vain at that age… I do wish we could rewind time a bit!

Agreed. Love my neice but she didn’t cover herself in glory that day. I think some real adversity might help, ironically, altho of course I don’t wish that upon her. I just think she needs to get out of her safe little bubble! Can’t see her moving out of her mums house for a long time. I left at 18 for uni and never went back!

Another change in the last 20 or so years is that it's much easier to have your entertainment come to you - stream just about anything at the touch of the button, order from a huge range of food and drinks (not just phoning your local takeaway) and of course, social media to keep you 'company',

To be fair, I think some introverts have worse social skills because they don't get as much practice. Younger introverts especially.

But then lots of people correlate that extroverts have good social skills, and we all know that isn't true either.

I think this thread is skewed very anti-introversion, but it really is a question of balance. It's fair to say that introverts found lockdown refreshing. It feels like a backlash of extroverts wanting to go back to the state of play instead of finding a happy medium.

@TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis

To be fair, I think some introverts have worse social skills because they don't get as much practice. Younger introverts especially.

But then lots of people correlate that extroverts have good social skills, and we all know that isn't true either.

I think this thread is skewed very anti-introversion, but it really is a question of balance. It's fair to say that introverts found lockdown refreshing. It feels like a backlash of extroverts wanting to go back to the state of play instead of finding a happy medium.

You're missing the point. The whole "introvert vs extrovert" thing which is fashionable at the moment is a completely false dichotomy.

Most of the people who call themselves "introverts" are not actually introverts. They are people who find socialising difficult, for a variety of reasons ranging from anxiety to being grumpy to having depression to being neurodiverse or bad at reading people or just flaky and selfish.

True introversion doesn't mean flaking out of social things because you can't be arsed or forwarding memes about it being "too peopley out there". It just means having to recharge your social batteries by being on your own. Lots of people are like that (including me).

On the flip side a lot of these self-styled "introverts" spend a lot of time bashing "extroverts" who aren't necessarily extroverts either, they are just people who are relatively socially comfortable and can cope with social contact without having to make a drama out of it.

If anyone found lockdown "refreshing" they they had a charmed existence indeed. For the majority of people lockdown was either dangerous and stressful, incredibly hard work or depressing. One of my absolute pet hates was people posting threads on here about how much they loved lockdown because they were free to spend their lives growing marrows with their children and facepainting all the time. For some of us it meant ten hour days working relentlessly while having to ignore our children just to keep the lights on. I digress but it was miserable and people posting about the joys of lockdown need to read the room a bit.

Your post suggests you've fallen into the trap of believing this dubious narrative about "introverts v extroverts". No one is "anti-introversion" (I'm certainly not). Some of us are quite tired of the fetishisation of poor behaviour under the banner of introversion.

Remember that 1980's parenting platitude - "you'll enjoy it when you get there"? Well 90% of the time it's actually true. If I only went to things when I actually felt like it immediately beforehand my life would be pretty small and boring.

I totally agree with this. I am an introvert but I cannot bear flakiness. So I like to spend a good chunk of my spare time at home and relaxing but I'll happily make plans to see people. It's just that I like to go out once a month rather than every week, for example.

There have been loads of times I've been due to meet a friend for dinner and then after a long day at work I feel tired, can't be bothered, just want to get my pyjamas on etc. But I don't cancel. I was taught that if you say you're going to do something, you commit to it and you treat other people wish respect. I usually always really enjoy myself once I've forced myself out.

Fortunately, I've dropped a lot of the biggest flakes from my life because they were sending me a message, loud and clear that they just weren't that bothered about our friendship. So I listened and stopped making arrangements with them.

The last time was when I was due to meet a friend for lunch. The only date she could do was when I had a dentist appointment it would clash with, I asked the week before if she still wanted to do the lunch date and she said yes so I moved my appointment and had to wait 4 months until the next one was available. She then cancelled on me last minute anyway with an excuse about being "burnt out" and needing some time at home after I'd checked with her and rearranged my plans to see her. It was a pattern of behaviour with her so I just stopped making plans to see her.

Being an introvert is not the same as being a flake. You can like being at home but still stand by your commitments. I think people are just a lot more selfish than they used to be.

I agree with @Thepeopleversuswork, I don't think this is an anti-introversion thread. I'm an introvert, meaning that I recharge by being alone. But I love socialising, being in a busy pub, seeing my friends, being out and about. There are some things I don't love: crowds (I'm short and have a fear of being crushed) or very noisy venues (I'm slightly deaf) but that doesn't mean I want to avoid those things entirely.

What most people on this thread are saying is that they've had enough of people who use their (incorrect) definition of introversion as an excuse to behave like a selfish arsehole, and the "faux introversion" is held up as some kind of virtue.