DS wants to charge

[CompleteOvaryAction]

DH and I are planning a big birthday party in the near future - live music , catering, marquis etc, for a joint "big 0" birthday.
Our DS will be in his third year as a music student and we mentioned we'd like his band to play for some of the evening. He wants us to pay him going rate for his services.
I feel that, for close family you waive your professional fee (we'd expect to pay his band mates) but he's adamant he wants paying too.
It feels like he doesn't appreciate that he's only where he is now because we have funded him. Whilst we don't expect "payback" it would be nice if he thought to acknowledge our help with a gesture of his time for our special celebration.
Is this just his inexperience talking? should we stand our ground, or does he have a point?
I'd rather not have him play, and just have him there as a guest if he insists on charging to play. What do you think?

💯 Perfectly put. I rest my case m’Lord.

It is, but that’s the choice of the person with the skill, and it’s generally recognised that it’ll be done at time that’s convenient to the one doing the work. The equivalent from this perspective is the OP expecting a team of joiners to carry out some work at a time convenient to her, and for nothing, in front of an audience. I don’t think the two are comparable. Sure, she says she will pay the others - but she’s been very opaque about how much.

Separately, she has an issue about the fact that her son doesn’t buy gifts for her or her husband for Christmas / Birthdays. That should have been tackled some time ago - unilaterally deciding that he should perform for nothing as a gift is unreasonable. Of course, the right thing for him to do could well be to offer to do it for nothing, and her to refuse that offer. But, she hasn’t brought him up that way, and so I don’t know whose fault she actually thinks all this is!!

@yorktown and @Prettydisgustingactually

I did ask @CompleteOvaryAction earlier on in the thread how good her DS's band is. I assume they are pretty good as they are music students.

Down our way, admittedly south east, a decent band on a Saturday night can earn £2k or more.
I saw an amazing band the other week and their fee was £5k - there was a lot of them and they were amazing, they got punters through the door.

He's not even a full time musician, he's a student. Even most FT musicians would perform for their parents for free FFS.

I do understand that it would be nice for them to offer to pay him something but his reaction was shit. It's hard being a musician, people want everything for free/cheap. It's crazy as it's an amazing skill/talent and so much hard work goes into it and it's really undervalued in general but it's his parents, for one night.

If you want to use the joiner/builder analogy then surely it would be more like.
“Hi electrician DC. Could you stick a couple of new double sockets in the bedroom for me? You’ll be round for my big family birthday party so why don’t you have food with us, then when everyone is relaxing and chatting, you could nip upstairs with your tools and spend a couple of hours putting them in. You’ll need to stay sober enough to operate power tools, but I’m sure you’ll be done just before everyone leaves so you can have a quick drink and say bye before they go.”

This too. I wonder if said son would from now on be happy to pay for any “services rendered” by his parents? Including, but not limited to, permanent or temporary accommodation, any cleaning, cooking, lifts, financial support, financial loans, legal advice, meals, any hosting or entertaining …. you get the picture.Or should all the services be provided to this young working musician for free? And, as someone has deftly pointed out so many of these are performed by the woman anyway, and her work, services and contribution are clearly worth nothing.

I accept all your points except the bit about doing it in front of an audience, a joiner can perform in front of an audience, his client and then leaves his work to be inspected, the musicians work is inspected as its presented.

I agree about presents/cards in general but surely at his age he should have reached the realisation himself.

I asked the same, I wouldn't guarantee they are good just because they are music students. I watch loads of live music and there are so many bands around that are average at best but are gigging regularly.

I live in South East and work with agents, the only bands earning that sort of money are those doing corporate and private events, or ticketed ones plus weddings, other venues pay nowhere close to that. I have been involved in booking bands and acts for many years and it really isn't that common to get that much.

Not buying gifts is a completely separate issue

I agree that up to a point joiner’s work is there to be inspected by others later, but a joiner also has time to fix any snagging matters that might occur before signing it off as complete. I don’t think that is quite the same as performing live.

And yes, I also agree that he should have figured out the gift giving thing, but clearly he hasn’t. How hard would it have been after the first missed occasion for the OP prompt the next time by asking what her son was getting for his Dad, or the Dad to ask what he was getting for the OP. Just dwelling on it getting more and more frustrated was unlikely to lead to the outcome she wanted.

Hopefully however it pans out the birthday is memorable for the right reasons and the OP has an amazing time :)

How is he giving back to OP by making her pay for his services?

Even though I think it's cheeky, I would pay to support him and brush it off. You are understandably upset.

Actually OP, I think you could/should have the whole thing out with him, including the lack of reciprocity re. presents. You can make your point, forcibly if necessary, but of course try to stay calm. Being honest is much better imo than passive aggression or you stewing on it. Give him something to think about. He may be miffed or even fall out with you for a while as a result, but that’s on him, let him be a grown up and deal with it. Meanwhile pay a professional band so you don’t have resentments or drama on your birthday.

You said that he is only taking, not giving anything back.

It's not like he's expecting to be paid in order to attend the party - he's expecting to be paid in the same way as his bandmates, for services being provided. In what way can that be defined as 'only taking, not giving back'?

He takes from OP as an adult male in the form of free accommodation, education support, cash and gifts.

As he is an adult he isn’t entitled to any of those things, they are within OP’s gift.

If he can’t gift OP a free gig then he shouldn’t expect gifts himself.

He's a student.

Helping to facilitate education is part of the responsibility of being a parent. Even when they are over 18. The whole grant/student loan thing is set up that way.

An still an adult who won't even do this for his own parents. He's a dickhead.

Having children is not a purchase that you get refund for.
You don’t care for them and meet their needs and put them through school so you can be reimbursed. It’s just called parenting.
Also why are you making this a personal attack on me? I don’t know you, yet all because I believe someone should get something for they I deserved to be attacked.
You seem pretty selfish and triggered by the idea this young person can be paid for something.
Maybe you should take a look at yourself if you feel it’s appropriate to be little someone especially after you go on a racist and agiest rant about British people’s

It's really not about the money / wanting a freebie. I am well aware of the cost and value of live music.

I appreciate DS determination to be paid for his work (the PP who suggested this might be at the forefront of his thoughts atm was spot on - DH reminded me he's reading a book about making it as a musician that we got him for Christmas).
But I don't believe for one second that anyone with a child would not be hurt by being treated like a stranger / paying customer by them.
Thank you for the various perspectives and ideas. He's still young and still learning, and so am I.
By the way, I've posted about my DS a few times, and always amused to see the extreme judgements people make on the little info provided. According to Mumsnet users over the years:

• my son will grow up to be a psychopath
• my son is lovely
• my son is a spoiled brat
• I don't give my DS enough pocket money
• all I do is spray money at DS instead of parenting

Only one of these statements is absolutely true all of the time.

But I don't believe for one second that anyone with a child would not be hurt by being treated like a stranger / paying customer by them.

My DD has her own side gig and when I want something I pay for it - she might turn it around quicker because it’s for me and we’re in the same house but the product still gets bought 🤷🏻‍♀️ I see nothing wrong with it, she’s put skills and material into it.

Sounds about right.

Threads are full of the most judgmental, rude and extreme comments all the time. People are so weird.

My husband is in a trade and he absolutely does work for both his parents and mine for free - I’d be so embarrassed if he tried to charge them for his time! (They pay for materials, as is only fair).

In return, they help with childcare and would be mortified if we tried to pay them for that. Immediate family help each other out in whatever way they can - it’s just what you do!

If he was a 'one man band', then I'd expect him to do it for free. But it's a funny dynamic when his band members are there and getting paid.
That said, he still shouldn't insist on payment.
YANBU.
Can I just ask out of interest, do you still contribute financially to his life? Pay fees, digs, or whatever?
This would have a massive impact on how I feel about it.

"But I don't believe for one second that anyone with a child would not be hurt by being treated like a stranger / paying customer by them."

I get what you mean but I can envisage NOT being hurt by something like this. It depends on how the message was delivered and the relationship between the two.

If he'd smiled and said something like, I know you are my parents but this is also my career, then I wouldn't be upset. But I also would WANT to pay my child in that situation. I'd be happy to be giving them an opportunity to perform if they wanted that. I don't really understand why you didn't feel the same. (I do understand your upset about the lack of presents and tendency to "take".)

I agree much depends on the tone of the discussion. It would never occur to me not to insist on paying my son in these circumstances. I'm also certain my son would protest. Then I would insist - and win!

But I still can't get my mind round the idea of an adult who has never bought his parents a present. And why his parents have allowed him to get away with it all his life.