Families when someone is wanting to change genders

[Pleasesendhelp8]

Have posted before but NC for this. Just after some advice really, i am a carer for DS1 (19) he has adhd and autism, high levels, still very dependant. Struggling with his sexuality and gender. Well I say struggling, he is sure that he’s gay, and he is sure that he wants to start hormone therapy to start to transition to be a woman, although he doesn’t want to actually be a woman he just wants top surgery. (Fine, I mean, it came out of nowhere at the time as he’s never been a feminine kind of boy, but ok.) The part where he is gay I kind of expected and I am supportive, the rest I try to support him as much as I can. However, this is where it gets difficult, I also have DS2 (9) and DD1 (2). Our house is so small that DS 1 is still sharing a room with DS2. 19 and 9, I’m sharing a room with DD1. (Just for context, I am trying to find somewhere bigger and more suitable, although it is extremely difficult in my position, I’m unable to work as I’m a single parent and also caring for two of my autistic children with additional needs I had to quit my job when DS1 was a teenager as it became apparent he needed someone with him atall times.) Anyhow, I have asked that he holds off from any hormone therapies while he is sharing a room with his younger brother for obvious reasons! But he does in the evenings change into womens clothes, sometimes a little revealing in my opinion. I mean I don’t wear miniskirts and shoulder revealing tops round the house but I have felt unable to broach this as a subject. I’ve just asked that he keeps it PG around his younger sibs. I’m just gaging what other people would do in this situation as I don’t want my younger son to feel uncomfortable in his own room, and I don’t want my older son to feel like he can’t be who he wants. But it’s just so difficult 😞

Absolutely this.

I think there's nothing more cruel than allowing a prepubescent child to believe that they are the opposite sex to the one they actually are, or encouraging a young gay man to have his penis amputated rather than pointing out that he still won't be a woman afterwards and his dating pool will be almost non existent.

Exactly. This kind of thing gets trotted out without any kind of scrutiny.

What if 'who people really are' causes problems or harm to society? What then?

Clearly, I’m not going to change anyone’s mind here, and I’m not trying to. But I do think it’s important to offer a different perspective, especially on a place like Mumsnet where things can feel so one-sided. It definitely attracts one specific mindset. Putting out different views helps balance the conversation a bit... and with that, I’m out of this thread…

You've made a decent attempt at a pivot towards a rhetorical strategy of "You're old so you don't understand but trust me, this is progress and it'll happen whether you like it or not!" Lots and lots of TRAs do this when their initial, specious arguments fail to convince, and to be fair to you, you've not done too badly in style and word selection.

Unfortunately for you, I know my history, so I know that just because something's new and beloved by young people, doesn't make it good. Often, it's the opposite of good: read up on Mao's Cultural Revolution for a really excellent example.

Secondly, I'm not from a Western background, so I don't subscribe to the smug delusion of linear progress throughout the centuries, a constant marching forward to ever sunnier climes, the young generation leading us on to a brave new world. I'm experienced and educated enough to know that history actually moves in cycles, bad ideas driven by bad actors and malicious folks crop up all the time and are - usually - sent packing, as is happening in our current era with trans dogma.

Can you balance the posts by actually responding to what people are saying then?

What do you think about the point that it's cruel to tell a child they can be the opposite sex when they can't? Biologically you can't.

And are we supposed to accept Fred West or Dominique Pélicot or Jimmy Savile for who they are?

It's clear that an awful lot of trans people struggle with socialising well. To treat individual cases as if the social problems and the gender identity just happen to coincidentally go together isnt helpful; there's always a high chance they're linked.

The thing with Mumsnet is that it's largely made up of women who have had exclusively female experiences such as pregnancy, childbirth and menopause, and which have indelibly marked us.

I believed that a man could become a woman when I was 16 and had not spent much time living with the reality of being a woman. But as you get older the more you realise how silly (and misogynistic, and downright dangerous) this idea is.

I remember patiently explaining to my mum that someone we knew had had a sex change and was a woman now. She didn't get it. I thought she didn't get it because she was older and stuck in her ways, and because she didn't come into contact with different types of people and new ideas that often. Now I'm pushing 40 and have had children myself, I realise that she didn't get it because it's nonsense. Because when you've grown children in your uterus and either pushed them out through your vagina or had them cut out of you, when your career trajectory has been permanently affected by that, when you realise how shit your pension is because of those years you spent out of the workforce with babies and toddlers attached to you, you realise how absurd it is to claim that a woman is just anyone of either sex who says they are one because of how they feel inside. Inside where? Their nonexistent uterus?

Real8ty isnt a mindset or an idological.position. Its reality. And we all know that activists like to paint a picture of MN being one sided wheras everyone else affirms and accepts trans people. But you're lying of course. The activists over cooked it and everyone can now see the enormous damage done to kids with puberty blockers and by affirming their delusions. From the many detransitioners, whose stories are now popping up on social media, through to schools who are now backing away from activist organisations such as Mermaids and Stonewall. The scales have fallen away from most people's eyes. The reality the poor OP inhabits is one where her vulnerable adult son has now become a dangerous influence on her young child. This is not a side, its a reality. So its good that you've stepped away as people like you are part of why the OP is now in this terrible position.

There has long been the narrative of ‘the next generation is more tolerant’.

However. This has been shown to be very much a falsehood.

There is evidence is that the current 18-28 year old people are the most INtolerant group in society. That they simply cannot allow others to have an opinion they disagree with without rejecting the person. They embody cancel culture.

Of course, those who believe they are in the ‘tolerant’ group keep telling assuring everyone that they are tolerant. While the reality is that the group are anything but tolerant.

What they have done is destabilise the meaning of the word ‘tolerant’ to mean the opposite to what the original meaning was intended. This has been done because ‘tolerance’, ‘inclusivity’, ‘kindness’ and ‘progressive’ are words that the group desire to reflect them. So they changed the meaning of the words so they can use the words for themselves. But the group’s actions are the opposite to those attributes when you start to analyse the behaviour.

It is a falsehood that comes hand in hand with being advised to rethink or reframe your perspective.

I was on a thread recently where we were effectively told that it was just a matter of finding the right words so people accepted that something impossible could well be possible. And that interactions are now to find the right words.

So, I am deeply, deeply suspicious when someone says that people should ‘rethink’ on how they frame their experiences.

I am also in strong disagreement that behaviours should remain in any way detached from gender identity. Because the person seeking to persuade people to do this is ignoring that while there are plenty of vulnerable people for who this might be true, it is not true for all.

It is very harmful advice, in my opinion. I don’t believe that gender identity can be fully kept separate in any case. Because all too often gender identity is entwined in the behaviour. Whether it is a cause, a symptom or a co-morbid state.

And FFS we know enough now about how grooming and predatory behaviour works. And of course, I am not saying that all people involved are predatory etc etc. But what I am saying is that any person who recommends to a vulnerable person that they should ‘just find a group of people who will accept them as they are’ and to reject their established friends and family who are raising alarms with behaviour is giving very poor advice at the best interpretation.

Who exactly benefits from a person rejecting their group of established loved ones? All too often it is not the person who is doing the rejection.

@GiveMeSpanakopita I just wanted to come on here to tell you that I think you are pretty fucking awesome, that is all.

you Have to be honest as
kids shouldn’t be mutilating themselves

I blame the schools feeding kids too much of shit
it’s got out of hand

I know 4 kids in this situation which is absurd
and I blame the schools for telling them that you can just swap sex when you can’t

My teen had a group of friends where there was 5 out of the 7 of them with declared transgender identities.

It's got to the point where I feel more inclined to trust faith schools not to teach my children dangerous ideological nonsense.

The first sign of this sort of shit in my children's school and I will pull them out and send them to Catholic school.

Shall I tell you where dont teach gender nonsense? Independent sector schools (although some girls.schools have been swept with it, replacing eating disorders as the new trauma fad). Becasue they dont have to follow DoE doctrine. Shame Labour is trying to get rid of them.

I volunteer in a secondary school and I can tell you that the vast majority of the upcoming generation have turned away from the trans and non-binary fads. Well, the neuro typical ones have. Sadly, the autustic kids or kids who dont fit in (or ones being abused I stringly suspect) are still being preyed upon online by activists. The other kids think they are weirdos. Horrible, but teens dont pull any punches and the sad fact is, they are isolating and othering themsleves and making themselves targets of scorn. Its the new goth/emo (I was a goth) but sadly it has far more danging long reaching physical, medical, psychological consequences that cant be reversed.

Get your son out OP.

Freaking badass response.
I'm raising my glass to you tonight.

Love love love.

Fred West was a cross dresser; like a significant number of other sexually sadistic serial killers, he started off by imitating women, before graduating to killing them.

Under Stonewall's stated definition, cross-dressing does indeed fall under what they term 'the trans umbrella', so, yes, Fred West, in this aspect at least, was stunning, brave and heckin' valid.

I don't think he'd be able to get a boob job on the NHS if he's saying he doesn't actually want to be female. So he'll need to funding that himself for starters.
But definitely see if he will go to a counsellor. I hope there are a few happy, well adjusted gay people he might be able to look to for inspiration and admiration. Being gay is totally cool. Being a man who paid to have fake breasts stuck on, not so much. If he is insistent about this stuff then I think he'd be better off living away from the younger ones. At least while room sharing is the only option.

I think you should move your 19 year old into YOUR bedroom with you, OP, and have the youngsters room together.

You owe your little ones that much. You're an adult. You can cope with sharing your bedroom with your gender confused adult male child, surely?

If not.....what on earth makes you think a young child can????

Thirty years ago, negative attitudes towards gay people were widespread, there was very little understanding/acceptance. Visibility annd education and activism helped shift public perception so we now have widespread acceptance of gay people.

The same progress is likely happening with transgender acceptance. Right now, there’s resistance due to misinformation and fear, but as people learn more about trans identities, understanding will increase. Being trans will likely be seen as a natural part of human diversity (like being gay is today). Future generations will wonder why it was ever such a big issue!

From what you've described OP - him wanting boobs, but not believing he 'is a woman', wearing miniskirts/knee socks - I'd say you'd be naive to assume it's not sexual in nature. It seems to show all the hallmarks, though I suppose that's hard to hear.

That doesn't make him a monster either. This kind of stuff is reasonably common I suppose. The question is whether you are happy for that to be played out openly, in your home, in the presence of younger children?

Personally I wouldn't be. However, in his own place, in private, fine. Perhaps counselling can help him get to the bottom of it all.

Being gay and being 'trans' are nothing to do with each other.

In many ways, they are exact opposites.

Being gay and being trans are different, but the pushback against both usually comes from the same place…fear…. misunderstanding, and basically discomfort with anyone who doesn’t fit the norm.