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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why women would be uncomfortable with unisex bathrooms

388 replies

Chumssss · 28/12/2024 21:58

Discussion with my DH tonight about this. Am I right in thinking that unisex bathrooms are not great?

OP posts:
Poppins21 · 29/12/2024 06:36

I have lived in Scandinavia for a long time and most of the toilets there are unisex, There are normally rows of cubicles that have a toilet and sink in with floor to ceiling doors. But the toilets are generally very clean and well maintained so it has been fine but in a mixed environment with toilets, urinals and communal sinks I would prefer women only space. Public toilets in the UK have got worse, I went in a pub toilet a few weeks ago and it was filthy so I decided to wait. When I had a bar job as a student I had to ensure the toilets were in a reasonable state as part of my job but many toilets look like staff never clean them.

Painauraison · 29/12/2024 06:39

It's just inappropriate in my opinion. Don't want pervy men in the toilets, and there's plenty of them.

scrivette · 29/12/2024 07:22

Went to a pub yesterday that had one huge bathroom, loos on the left had signs on the doors female or unisex, ones on the right had male or unisex on the door. All floor to ceilings with hand basins in. They were really clean and seemed to work very well (despite being incredibly busy) and I felt very comfortable using them.

endofthelinefinally · 29/12/2024 08:52

The kind of man who wants to be in women's toilets is exactly the type of man you really don't want in there.

Aibuquestiononrelationship · 29/12/2024 08:55

PoissonOfTheChrist · 28/12/2024 22:05

You're more likely to be assaulted in a mixed sex toilet than single sex one.

This.

Also smell. Men often stray around missing pan.

JennyPenny222 · 29/12/2024 09:14

They are always disgusting.
Plus the safety angle if they aren't just a single room off the main room.

pumpkinpillow · 29/12/2024 09:30

scrivette · 29/12/2024 07:22

Went to a pub yesterday that had one huge bathroom, loos on the left had signs on the doors female or unisex, ones on the right had male or unisex on the door. All floor to ceilings with hand basins in. They were really clean and seemed to work very well (despite being incredibly busy) and I felt very comfortable using them.

This isn't forcing women to use toilets men are using. All good.

batshitaboutcatshit · 29/12/2024 09:35

Mudonstairs · 29/12/2024 02:44

I would not like to use a unisex toilet myself for many of the reasons above, but I do worry about my son when he is of age. He will one day be expected to use a male toilet as a child and it does make me worry that I won’t be able to go in there to wait for him and I’ll have to wait outside. Men have been known to prey on young males also.

The answer would be to have a unisex toilet in addition to male and female ones, rather than instead of. This would solve a lot of issues for families, carers and also be inclusive of trans/non-binary people. The problem is probably going to be that most already existing businesses/premises don’t have the space for this but it would be great if there could be new building regs put in place for all new build offices and public spaces.

Another thing I have noticed is that the baby change is always in the female toilets, so where is my DH meant to change a nappy if he is out with the baby without me?! I think building regulations need to be updated to this century for everyone’s benefit.

It's very stressful as a mother to have to eventually send your sons into the men's toilets alone. Despite me never feeding them any horror stories, my boys were always frightened to go in there alone when younger.
Even now that they are young teens I would be wary of them going into a quiet men's toilet and I'll always wait right at the door.

Pluvia · 29/12/2024 09:42

TempestTost · 29/12/2024 02:34

The thing is, even in best case scenarios, it's not great.

In some instances they are not so bad, but even there just one person who makes someone uncomfortable can change that.

And lots of women probably wouldn't be bothered in plenty of circumstances - except when they are. I might not mind at work with a couple of men I know and like, who are sensitive, but I sure as heck mind at night in a bus station with people I don't know, some of whom may appear to be weirdos, drug addicts, or whatever. I know lots of young women who shared washrooms at University and didn't mind at all, but then one guy who you had some kind of uncomfortable moment is there, and it's not ok all of a sudden.

So apart from situations where you can control who has access, like in your home, they just don't really work.

The fully enclosed cubical thing I don't like. It's trying to replicate the kinds of individual washrooms you see in smaller places which are usually unisex, but IMO they are too small, I find them difficult to maneuver in and I'm able bodied. You can't really take a child in, much less an infant in even a small stroller, and they make me really claustrophobic. They can be a bugger to clean as well.

All of this. I notice that the fully enclosed ones with walls to the floor tend to end up with corners of the floor/ skirting area uncleaned — and if a man is spraying pee around, that means they will start to smell. Even well-aimed male pee hits the porcelain and creates a fine mist of micro droplets that can cover a surprisingly large area around the cubicle. This is an interesting video showing how quickly male pee can accumulate. Imagine a busy office or cafe loo, with 10+ men using the facilities each hour, and cleaned inadequately by someone on minimum wage each evening. Then you'll understand why male loos smell so bad and why women shouldn't have to put up with it. My German and Danish friends have taught their sons to urinate sitting down.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejl7vrDUIcs

Waitfortheguinness · 29/12/2024 09:47

We had an issue when our works place moved into a new building. When it was being build it had 4 individual unisex cubicles, with a toilet and hand basin (including a larger disabled one) all opening directly along a corridor. At a staff meeting we all complained that we wanted separate men’s/ladies etc (workforce about 10% women) including the men who preferred urinals! But no, the management, primarily wfh, with the designers insisted it was the standard now. One lady asked the MD if he’d be happy for his wife and two young daughters to be sharing facilities with 35+ men…..he ignored the question.

Susiesoozie · 29/12/2024 09:47

curtaintwitcher78 · 28/12/2024 22:39

Whenever you go to the toilet in a small cafe/restaurant where there's only one toilet, it's unisex.
When your friend goes to the toilet in your house, it's unisex.

Yes but in a single toilet scenario, the potential shame of being identified as the perpetrator will make most folk think twice about being vile. I hope. Single toilet and you come out after making a mess , you are known to be the "one"

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/12/2024 10:01

scrivette · 29/12/2024 07:22

Went to a pub yesterday that had one huge bathroom, loos on the left had signs on the doors female or unisex, ones on the right had male or unisex on the door. All floor to ceilings with hand basins in. They were really clean and seemed to work very well (despite being incredibly busy) and I felt very comfortable using them.

Please look at my post 23.33 last night which shows why they are dangerous. They may seem safe but they are not.

The young woman I saved had choked on their own vomit - possibly from alcohol - but I would not have seen them in that design of toilet cubicle.

Pubs and clubs are the most common place for drinks to be spiked.

Mudonstairs · 29/12/2024 10:17

batshitaboutcatshit · 29/12/2024 09:35

It's very stressful as a mother to have to eventually send your sons into the men's toilets alone. Despite me never feeding them any horror stories, my boys were always frightened to go in there alone when younger.
Even now that they are young teens I would be wary of them going into a quiet men's toilet and I'll always wait right at the door.

Glad it’s not just me. I thought I was the only who felt wary of this but I am already quite an anxious over thinker!

pumpkinpillow · 29/12/2024 10:42

batshitaboutcatshit · 29/12/2024 09:35

It's very stressful as a mother to have to eventually send your sons into the men's toilets alone. Despite me never feeding them any horror stories, my boys were always frightened to go in there alone when younger.
Even now that they are young teens I would be wary of them going into a quiet men's toilet and I'll always wait right at the door.

Did they tell you what they were frightened of? What might they have seen or heard to have made them frightened? I wouldn't think fear of using public toilets was an inherent feeling.

whathaveiforgotten · 29/12/2024 10:42

@JHound

have fibroids and so my periods were like a waterfall plus I use menstrual cups and yet have never once had to walk to the sink to clean off “blood stained hands”.

If you have very heavy periods and use menstrual cups, where do you rinse them before reinserting them if they are full when you're out and about?

Supermonstermaniac · 29/12/2024 10:45

Sometimes women use the toilet as a breathing space from men.
Some women get changed and use the big mirror by the sink.
Some Muslim women restyle their scarf in the mirror.
Small girls are sent by themselves without parents sometimes to the toilet.
Men toilets are dirtier, they just are.
Most sex crimes are by men.

WinterBones · 29/12/2024 11:05

Keeptoiletssafe · 28/12/2024 23:33

@Sux2buthen @Ponderingwindow @JarvisIsland @SwanRivers @Cherrypickled @GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing @PerditaLaChien @WinterBones @curtaintwitcher78 @RamblingEclectic @Newhi @WigglyVonWaggly

and to all those who haven’t realised or thought about the importance of gaps when you are at your most vulnerable….

Mind the Gap
Toilet door gaps are vital for safety and safeguarding. Yet across the country new toilet block designs are getting rid of the gaps at the bottom and tops of toilet doors and partitions, to make cubicles fully enclosed.

Medical Safety
If you feel nauseous or ill you are likely to head to the toilet. If you collapse, you are more likely to survive, or avoid suffering long-term damage, if someone notices and rescues you.

There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet room. There are no UK statistics that list where people collapse. However, it is known there are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to one every five minutes. It is estimated there are 400,000 people in the U.K. with undiagnosed heart failure. There are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes. Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes and asthma.

Children are particularly at risk now more than ever. In the last few years the Department of Education has changed the toilet designs in secondary schools, putting privacy ahead of safety and health. The building schools document now specifies a 0.5cm floor to door gap for privacy. As far as I am aware, there has been no impact assessment on closing the safety gaps. The words ‘safe’, ‘safety’ do not appear in the toilet section but ‘privacy’ in mentioned and this is the reason they gave me.

To put figures into perspective for UK schools there are around 9 children with epilepsy in an average secondary school. There will be on average another 2-3 with Type 1 diabetes. Several hundred children are diagnosed with strokes each year. Every week on average 12 people under the age of 35 are lost to sudden cardiac death.

The DfE understands the important of quickly getting emergency help - it now expects all state funded schools to have at least one defibrillator on site because defibrillation can increase the survival rate by as much as 75%. But knowing the person has collapsed in the first place, and therefore getting help as quickly as possible, is vital.

Like wearing a car seatbelt, toilet door gaps can make the difference in those critical moments.

Governing bodies must ensure arrangements are in place to support pupils with medical conditions. Some children and staff, such as those with epilepsy, may be considered disabled under the definition set out in the Equality Act 2010, and governing bodies must comply with their duties under that Act. When I complained to the DfE they said the governors are responsible for knowing their cohort and that there should be supervision. And that if a pupil did collapse it is ultimately the school and governors’ responsibility. How are governors supposed to know who is about to collapse from a fever, a spiked vape, a hypo, a stroke, a heart attack, a seizure?

Prevention of Sexual Assaults
In any space that becomes private, more offences are likely to take place as there are no witnesses. In Parliament it was discussed that there was at least 1 rape inside a school premises each day (over 600 in a 3 year period). The data, collected by the BBC, mentions an example occurring in a private cupboard. This was in 2015, before many schools decided to change their toilet designs to fully enclosed and mixed sex. The toilet door gaps are vital for safeguarding to help prevent activities that stop pupils, especially girls, going to the toilet.

There is no available data on these new toilet designs but, teachers and pupils are now reporting many problems with ‘drug dealing, drinking and dirt’. In one newspaper article, school staff reported, ‘Kids would go in there to have sex, to drink alcohol. They’d push other kids in and lock themselves in with them. They’d block the drains and flood the corridor.” Another responded: “The toilets were really smelly and unpleasant. Because they were fully enclosed spaces they weren’t properly ventilated, and harder to clean.”
One teacher was worried someone could collapse unnoticed in a completely enclosed cubicle. They said: “The CCTV in the corridor was only any good retrospectively. The toilets had turn locks, so you could open them from the outside if you needed to, but you couldn’t hear through the door, couldn’t see whether there was one or two people in there, or if someone had collapsed.”

Other Health, Safety and Welfare concerns
Toilet cubicles with insufficient ventilation present a high cross infection risk. If toilets are fully enclosed, premises have to rely more on efficient mechanical ventilation to prevent disease spread then school absences rising. The practicalities of cleaning a vomit-covered floor are difficult when the mop can not go under the doors and partitions and the cleaner can not soak the floor with disinfectant from outside the cubicle. Ensuring each individual cubicle is always lit and not vandalised is a concern.

More staff supervision is needed outside these fully enclosed designs as it has been shown that pupils are more likely to engage in multiple occupation activities (sex and drug dealing), illegal activities (taking drugs) and self harm due to the privacy. Staff have the responsibility of checking toilets in the event of an emergency evacuation. This becomes a much longer process without the door gaps to aid quick identification of occupation.

Of course the problems in secondary schools are repeated across the whole country when it comes to unisex toilets in public places. Particularly with women being spiked and nightclubs. And also in disabled toilets which are traditionally mix sex.

I saved a young woman’s life by entering the ladies toilets and saw a blue hand on the cubicle floor through the gap and we rescued her in time. Unfortunately another time it was too late to prevent damage to a child because of a full height door. It is for this latter time I want to educate people and try and get the Department of Education in particular to prioritise safety rather than privacy.

Gaps save lives and prevent assaults.

As someone who has said they're disabled, and uses disabled toilets WHICH HAVE NO GAP BY DEFAULT, and are more statistically likely to have someone in there who is medically vulnerable, therefore has an emergency pull cord (which abled bodied dickheads keep tying up) why the fuck are you tagging me in your lecture?

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/12/2024 11:51

WinterBones · 29/12/2024 11:05

As someone who has said they're disabled, and uses disabled toilets WHICH HAVE NO GAP BY DEFAULT, and are more statistically likely to have someone in there who is medically vulnerable, therefore has an emergency pull cord (which abled bodied dickheads keep tying up) why the fuck are you tagging me in your lecture?

Edited

Ouch. I tagged you in as disabled toilets are not the best or safest toilets BECAUSE they don’t have gaps.

There is a pattern of people saying ‘well disabled toilets have no gaps so…’ as an excuse for other sets of toilets having no gaps.

I can explain again:

I know disabled people who can’t use the disabled toilets as they are unsafe because they would be unseen if they collapsed. For example, a person with epilepsy or diabetes who has the potential to collapse. I have seen people having hypos and seizures and they can feel ill and confused beforehand. This means they are unlikely to have a capacity to pull a cord. Plus these people live and work day to day without collapsing most weeks or months. They don’t have assistance or supervision. Yet they are still disabled so planners ‘tick’ a box to say they have met the needs of being accessible.

If you clicked on my hyperlinks in that post you can see why lots of people die in bathrooms/toilet cubicles. Heart attacks and strokes and drugs too.

Unfortunately, if you are a woman, girl or boy, you were more likely to be assaulted in a disabled toilet because they were the only ones that were fully private. Able bodied and disabled people have been pushed or followed into them. It doesn’t matter if it’s in a busy area - it’s happened in the busiest stations and shopping centres. It happens in schools. I have lots of depressing examples of you want evidence.

Any private place open to men and women in a public area will be a risk. More toilet cubicles are appearing up and down the country with this design in single sex toilet blocks and as unisex blocks too.

We don’t need more toilets designed as fully enclosed under the excuse that disabled ones are safe. They are not.

That is why I am tagged you in. Your words were similar to the excuse the government gave me why they hadn’t done any impact assessment on rescue times. They haven’t done any impact assessment on enclosing toilet cubicles full stop.

What the government have done (because you can’t open a cubicle door inwards when a body is collapsed against it) is regulate that any of the new fully enclosed cubicles can be opened easily from the outside, outwards. This means that men can let themselves in at any time without warning. Worst of all worlds.

DorothyStorm · 29/12/2024 11:58

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/12/2024 11:51

Ouch. I tagged you in as disabled toilets are not the best or safest toilets BECAUSE they don’t have gaps.

There is a pattern of people saying ‘well disabled toilets have no gaps so…’ as an excuse for other sets of toilets having no gaps.

I can explain again:

I know disabled people who can’t use the disabled toilets as they are unsafe because they would be unseen if they collapsed. For example, a person with epilepsy or diabetes who has the potential to collapse. I have seen people having hypos and seizures and they can feel ill and confused beforehand. This means they are unlikely to have a capacity to pull a cord. Plus these people live and work day to day without collapsing most weeks or months. They don’t have assistance or supervision. Yet they are still disabled so planners ‘tick’ a box to say they have met the needs of being accessible.

If you clicked on my hyperlinks in that post you can see why lots of people die in bathrooms/toilet cubicles. Heart attacks and strokes and drugs too.

Unfortunately, if you are a woman, girl or boy, you were more likely to be assaulted in a disabled toilet because they were the only ones that were fully private. Able bodied and disabled people have been pushed or followed into them. It doesn’t matter if it’s in a busy area - it’s happened in the busiest stations and shopping centres. It happens in schools. I have lots of depressing examples of you want evidence.

Any private place open to men and women in a public area will be a risk. More toilet cubicles are appearing up and down the country with this design in single sex toilet blocks and as unisex blocks too.

We don’t need more toilets designed as fully enclosed under the excuse that disabled ones are safe. They are not.

That is why I am tagged you in. Your words were similar to the excuse the government gave me why they hadn’t done any impact assessment on rescue times. They haven’t done any impact assessment on enclosing toilet cubicles full stop.

What the government have done (because you can’t open a cubicle door inwards when a body is collapsed against it) is regulate that any of the new fully enclosed cubicles can be opened easily from the outside, outwards. This means that men can let themselves in at any time without warning. Worst of all worlds.

This is actually true about our unisex toilet at work. It is fully enclosed but can easily be unlocked from the outside with a straight edge. I hate using it during break time as I have been sat in there when someone has started to unlock it from the outside. I jumped up and grabbed the handle. Not an easy feet as the door isnt reachable when sat down. They ran off so it was 100% intentional to expose someone using the toilet. I put in a complaint but nothing was done. The door is 100% in view of cctv but it wasnt even checked to see who attempted to opened the door.

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/12/2024 12:19

DorothyStorm · 29/12/2024 11:58

This is actually true about our unisex toilet at work. It is fully enclosed but can easily be unlocked from the outside with a straight edge. I hate using it during break time as I have been sat in there when someone has started to unlock it from the outside. I jumped up and grabbed the handle. Not an easy feet as the door isnt reachable when sat down. They ran off so it was 100% intentional to expose someone using the toilet. I put in a complaint but nothing was done. The door is 100% in view of cctv but it wasnt even checked to see who attempted to opened the door.

Edited

The person I saved from dying* was because I saw their blue hand on the floor inside the cubicle as soon as I entered the ladies as there was a floor to door gap. I wouldn’t have been able to push the door open so my friend went over the top of the door and pulled her body out the way and opened the door. We then got the vomit out her mouth and whacked her on the back until she started breathing again and stayed until the paramedics arrived. She was drifting in and out of consciousness but I like to think she survived.

It was a nightclub so even if she had have been making any noise, we wouldn’t have heard her.

*I think

DancingNotDrowning · 29/12/2024 12:27

I dislike them

there are a few restaurants near me that have switched to unisex - they’re floor to ceiling but in two places, at the end of a somewhat dark corridor which makes them a little unpleasant to use as I feel quite vulnerable.

most recently I was at dinner with DD and all the cubicles were occupied and the mixed shared space was full of drunk men my teen DD was very intimidated.

plus they are always so much more revolting than womens toilets.

Boredlass · 29/12/2024 12:36

I’ve used mixed toilets a lot and never had a problem with them. It’s cubicles only so I don’t see why you think you’ll see a man’s penis. It doesn’t happen although I bet someone will come along and say that’s exactly what happened to them…

Characterbuilding · 29/12/2024 12:36

The ladies toilet is a safe not just somewhere to relieve yourself. It's somewhere to sort yourself out if your period has flooded.

Somewhere to take a moment to compose yourself or make a call if you find yourself in an unpleasant or dangerous situation.

Also somewhere you can have a laugh on a big night out, I've had loads of good chats, exchanged compliments and given and received advice in the sanctuary of the "ladies". It's important to preserve that I think.

Sapphire29 · 29/12/2024 13:14

Boredlass · 29/12/2024 12:36

I’ve used mixed toilets a lot and never had a problem with them. It’s cubicles only so I don’t see why you think you’ll see a man’s penis. It doesn’t happen although I bet someone will come along and say that’s exactly what happened to them…

Someone said on an earlier post that a man in a unisex toilet walked out of the cubicle with his penis on show. If your child was present, you'd think nothing of it?

Some men do this on purpose to intimidate women. How many women 'flashers' do you hear of? None I bet. Because it's a man thing.

Sapphire29 · 29/12/2024 13:14

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