To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

You should be able to coherently refute why inherently changing the life experience and definition of female people and same sex attracted is not either or both misogynistic and homophobic.

Just saying ‘it isn’t’ is a rebuttal. It is just rejection of the concept. And the concepts will still be applicable despite your personal rejection of it. Posters have been trying to explain this to you and to use your own sentiments back at you, you don’t seem to be listening / reading and as we saw last night that can be very clearly said to be due to your own prejudice about the people who disagree with you.

Men claiming they are women based on certain clothes, make up, mannerisms etc is sexism. It’s defining woman by sexist stereotypes.

What is the point in this conversation? I repeatedly have shared what being trans is on this thread without reference to clothes, mannerisms or stereotypes. Yet you continue to assert the same nonsense for no reason and demand I refute it?

The reason many women here feel the ideas about being transgender is sexist is that it dismisses what it actually means to be female, the way growing up biologically female impacts your life. No male person can ever have that lived experience and the way transactivists, and you as well, ignore womens voices in this, is very sexist.

That is why I said many. Many women feel that but because you don't, you won't listen to them. Sorry, but that is really closed minded. How can you ever gain acceptance for trans people if you never listen to the counter arguments and try to find consensus?

For example, having periods that come and go, flooding, cramps, missing school, stopping sports, is something that resonates with many women and girls. Male people don't have that experience and it shapes us. I am used to planning ahead and always carry supplies with me because of my experiences. I am not saying men din't do this, but they will have learned this for very different reasons. Periods shaped my living. That cannot and should not be ignored and transgender ideas does just that. It says all that doesn't matter in being female and a feeling is all that matters. I find that very very sexist way of thinking.

Can you acknowledge any merit in this line of thinking?

Because when I pointed out these that sexism, misogyny and homophobia are central tenets of trans ideology, you called me transphobic. So if you stand by that accusation, back it up and explain why I’m wrong and you are right.

Can you acknowledge any merit in this line of thinking?

No because there’s nothing about accepting trans people that requires you to dismiss the importance of having periods or how that has affected you. Why do you think that there is?

Some (non trans) women don’t have periods. That doesn’t make your periods any less valid or important. It’s just different experiences . The vast majority of women have periods. It’s important to recognise that. A small minority don’t

Trans people don’t take anything away from you. They really don’t.

So you have a PhD in gender studies? And you cannot provide links to evidence because? And you keep resorting to ad hom attacks because you cannot support your arguments?

The Lesbian dating pool would be Females who are sexually attracted to only other Females. Because a Lesbian is a Female who is sexually attracted to only Females.

Just for the avoidance of confusion, a Female is an adult human being who was born with the capability to make large Gametes. We used to be able to call these type of being Women and everyone would understand the definition with no need for consternation or thought wrangling, but now anybody who fancies it can use that word to describe themselves so it has lost all meaning.

This is not a difficult concept so you are either:

A) abysmally stupid
B) Deliberately obtuse

Which is it?

a phd in gender studies??

Lostcat is Sally Hines and I claim my £5!

You continue to speak for transgender people while actively dismissing what transgender people
say about themselves because it doesn’t fit your own narrative about gender identity.

And the hypocrisy of you doing so is very clear.

Well ….

Well that would explain a lot 😆

Lostcat can’t be Sally Hines, far too coherent.

You are seriously asking what the lesbian dating pool means? Seriously? No, I am going to say that this comment is not posting in good faith and not answer this.

As for why I feel transwomen don't respect women, I posted why below it. But if you missed it, transwomen have been told women rather not share changing rooms or compete in sports against them. Transwomen could respect women and acknowledge the biological differences between them and women make this uncomfortable, unfair or even dangerous for women. Transwomen could choose to find alternatives but they don't. They just demand access and often bully women to get their way. Don't you see bullying as disrespectful?

Lostcat, what is the Cotton Ceiling? And why did Stonewall hire the man who designed training courses to help men get access to lesbians by breaking through 'The Cotton Ceiling'?

Do you not think lesbians deserve to have their own body integrity and not have the charity that was supposed to support them, endorse and promote access to them for sex?

It absolutely is transphobic to say that the mere fact of being trans is those things.

That’s self evident, I don’t need to explain it.

I can’t see how you could try to claim otherwise.

if you think a person is offensive simply due to some essential characteristic of their person that they can’t help, then you are offended by that person.

You have again resorted to using people’s medical conditions to support your theories about gender identity.

All female people have bodies formed around the production of large gametes and sometimes the production of those gametes does not happen.

No male person has a body formed around the production of large gametes. It is not possible for
that male person to have ‘periods’ and it is not fucking the same as a female person not having periods because of a medical condition.

I said trans ideology is based on those things.

If a male is claiming to be a lesbian he is being homophobic. If people support that idea - like you - they are also acting homophobic. A man claiming to be a lesbian is not an “essential characteristic” of that man.

The accusation of transphobia when pointing out sexism, misogyny and homophobia is so 2018.

No because there’s nothing about accepting trans people that requires you to dismiss the importance of having periods or how that has affected you. Why do you think that there is?

Because having periods, or not having periods when you should be having them, is a defining experience. Being female is the core and shared experience of being a woman that no male person can ever understand. They can sympathise and many men do. Transwomen don't, they belittle it, some transwomen even claim they have periods too. That is extremely disrespectful and would not be acceptable to do to any other group of people, so why are women fair game?

oh we are back to policy.

The reason why trans women ask to be accepted as women is not because they are disrespectful or misogynistic. It’s because - as I explained earlier- it’s profoundly painful to live in a state where your understanding/ recognition of self is completely at odds with how people in the world recognise/ perceive you. Trans people seek social , legal and medical transition to reconcile their gender with their sex . It has absolutely nothing to do with you as a woman or what they think of you as a woman

No. Again you have grouped all transgender people under a homogenous grouping that suits your area of study.

You keep dismissing the perspective of transgender people who don’t fit your profile parameters.

And you keep using absolutist and catastrophising tactics to try to support your theories. The cycle continues across threads.

I said trans ideology is based on those things

what do you mean by trans ideology?

OP, You are quite right in your opening post to ask the questions you have.

As you can see there is nothing more than emotionally manipulative explanations and pleas for understanding something which is impossible when questions are asked.

It is a philosophical belief and nothing more.

It seems we need a reminder on every thread of this topic :

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.
Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.
Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.
How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.
How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

The reason why trans women ask to be accepted as women is not because they are disrespectful or misogynistic. It’s because - as I explained earlier- it’s profoundly painful to live in a state where your understanding/ recognition of self is completely at odds with how people in the world recognise/ perceive you

That is sad for them, but they need therapy, not the rest of the world bending over backwards, dismantling language and safeguarding to accommodate them.

The bottom line is that they will never truly be seen as women, no matter how many lies people are compelled to tell.

"Men making society redefine “woman” to include him is misogyny"

Surely trans groups can only lobby for these changes just as GC organisations lobby for the opposite.

The laws and regulations that facilitate passport arrangements that require only a doctor's letter would have been passed by parliament which trans people do not constitute a majority.

The regulations apply to transmen and transwoman alike and surely it's a little absurd to claim that these were only passed due to misogyny. ..

Why don’t you answer my questions first:

Men making society redefine “woman” to include him is misogyny. It’s a hatred of women played out as telling women to be what men say.

Men claiming they are women based on certain clothes, make up, mannerisms etc is sexism. It’s defining woman by sexist stereotypes.

Men who are opposite sex attracted who then claim to be women, and hence claim to be lesbians as a result, is homophobia. It’s the ‘I’m as lesbian trapped in a man’s body” trope.

Can you explain how these things are not true, given you’re utterly convinced they’re not? It should be easy. But you won’t.