To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

i do not believe in a “female brain”

So what do you say to the trans identifying males who say they have one? Do you deny their experience?

Yes, there are TRAs who have been literally using the words 'lady brain' on Twitter (X).

Oh, more obfuscation. Why DARVO and not just answer the question?

It's because you can't, isn't it.

So “TRAs” is ok, but there will be endless handwringing if you say “gender criticals” for shorthand…

And trans ideology believers wonder why their grip on society with their beliefs is slipping

Yes.

And being gender critical is a choice: choose better my friend.

You cannot choose to believe something.

One of my teachers was a "lapsed Catholic"; he'd been raised Catholic and had lost his faith.

He told us on several occasions that he'd love to be able to believe again, but he just couldn't. It's virtually impossible to force yourself to believe something you don't, even when doing so would advantage you in some way (emotional comfort, ability to fit in with peers or wider society, etc)

I am Generation Z and I truly wish I could believe in the trans stuff. It would make my life so much easier.

I wouldn't need to hide my true feelings from my friends. I wouldn't have a massive anxiety spike every time the topic came up. I wouldn't feel held back from pursuing a career in the arts like I always wanted to do. I wouldn't have to choose between my personal integrity and my dislike of confrontation.

But sadly, I have realised the problems with ending sex-based provision and the problems with compelling others to accept a subjective reality, and once seen, this is very difficult to unsee.

There are also some stark parallels between my experience of being an "ally", and my experience of abusive relationships. I am done with eroding my personal boundaries for others, and being told my perceptions are false.

It’s very hard to not believe in biological reality. I mean, you have to significantly suppress your thoughts to believe that the concepts of “man” and “woman” are nothing more than feelings inside the heads of humans. Or believe that one can change into another. It’s like choosing to believe the Earth isn’t a sphere.

So in summary.

A man can change his passport, birth certificate, marriage certificate on demand, for £5, which allows him access to everything that had previously been female only. And all he needs is a thought in his head as evidence even though you cannot evidence thought. In fact he doesn't even need to change anything he should just have it if he wants it.

And nobody can ponder why, nobody is allowed to question his motives, thoughts, reasons, and he must be believed at all times and can even punch women for sport, win awards, and be locked away in jail with women. And the women who question this are all nasty and have made a choice to be that way.

And women who have said things like 'sex is real' deserve all they get including losing their jobs, which means they often cannot feed their own children or risk losing their homes, so should just shut up about it.

And doctors removing your genitals or breasts isn't 'mutilation', it is just 'gender affirming', to affirm one or other of the 130 genders that are currently listed. And realising it was a mistake isn't due to losing body parts, it was because someone was mean to them.

Yes. Because TRAs is an abbreviation of transgender rights activists. ‘Activist’ is a term that is the humanising term already included.

’transes’ - contains no humanising term
‘gender criticals - contains no humanising term
Transgender rights activist - contains a humanising term
Gender critical feminist - contains a humanising term
Transgender person - contains a humanising term
Gender critical person - contains a humanising term
Male person - contains a humanising term

I pointed out the direct comparison that was symmetrical to you, and the hypocrisy of your own behaviour on this thread with using such language, and you then patronised me and dismissed my view and immediately claimed to be being harassed, which was then framed me as an abuser. Which is an abusive tactic in itself.

If you are demanding respect for you and your opinions on this thread why would you wish to use dehumanising terms?

great summary

👏👏👏

And yet, we have groups of transgender people who have described that it is a conscious decision for them. The transmaxxers are one such group. We had a transgender person who was from this group ‘educate’ us on the topic. There have been teens on TikTok who were stating that it is a lifestyle choice for them.

I think you have covered it

Thank you @Lostcat for engaging so doggedly with this thread. I have read it all thoughtfully. What you have made clear to me is that there is a fundamental difference between 'knowledge' and 'belief'. I think sometimes when you say 'knows' in your posts, you really mean 'believes'.

You haven't changed my view. No matter how much they try or believe, trans women are male. They cannot change sex. They are welcome to wear whatever they like and present themselves however they choose, but they should respect women's single sex spaces and women's sport.

Thanks, AlisonDonut, for the summary.

Also, my last post of @Lostcat waysvof thinking,

Transwomen are male at birth.
Sex matters in healthcare, but not sports.
There are ideas about how gender identity in brains work but no concrete evidence or research, also no male or female brain classifications
Sex is complicated and multi dimensional,
(internal reproductive organs, visual sexual anatomy, chromosomes and genetics) and deviations in sex development seem to be the reason that trans people can 'change sex' when they can only change the visual sexual anatomy with plastic surgery.
It also doesn't explain why someone who hasn't had all the surgery and still is on their original male pathway should be able to change their sex marker.

We never got to the point of why sex segregation should not be legal and gender segregation should be, what it should be based on or if Lostcat wants to just have everything mixed sex, including sports, changing rooms and prisons but not healthcare.

@Lostcat , if you are interested, a good way to see the impact of changing the definition of the word woman to mean person is read the news for a couple of days and change the word woman to person and see the impact of the words. Like the people in Afghanistan who can't have windows.

Harriet, I think you have nailed the point very well.

All through this thread has been the use of ‘knowledge’ when it can only possibly be said to be ‘belief’.

And there is very little other concepts where what is essentially a ‘belief’ is prioritised above a characteristic that is the determiner for safeguarding of other groups. Sex is important to be a categorising tool for certain things. Such as single sex provisions.

What becomes clear over threads such as this is that at all times those seeking to wedge in male people into single sex provisions needed for female people is that they seek to find ‘useful’ ways to present what is in effect demands. Hence the constant reference to ‘they know’ when it is materially impossible for a person to ‘know’ that concept at all.

That is where the philosophical belief comes into the discussion as the sole underpinning of the discussion and the appeal to future potential knowledge. The postmodernist ‘I am what I say I am’ with a huge dollop of queer theory.

And as always, material reality abides on relentlessly despite human’s efforts to redescribe ourselves.

Thought so

who have described that it is a conscious decision for them

no being trans is not a conscious choice.

It’s actually absurd that you believe this, but it tracks.

You cannot choose to believe something.

hilarious. So you were born gender critical were you? Through no fault of your own? and you can’t possibly change it by opening your mind and being less dogmatic/ prejudiced.

Another post telling us what it’s not. Why don’t you tell us what it is?

I have repeatedly. You just don’t care to listen, because you’ve already decided that you really don’t like trans people.

You haven’t explained how it’s not sexist, misogynistic or homophobic. Someone who strongly believes their ideology is not those things should be able to easily I’d have thought. But you won’t. Or can’t?

So again I ask you, are you telling us not to believe transgender people when they tell us their experiences?

Can you start telling us what makes you an expert in this field that you can speak on behalf of transgender people please?

we know. You believe:

being trans is an ideology
being trans is sexist
being trans is misogynistic
being trans is homophobic

But you totally don’t have an issue with trans people

This is an ad hom attack and it is another false generalisation.

If your argument cannot be explained clearly without resorting to ‘they just know‘ and you don’t see a problem with that as a position, don’t then start attacking those you disagree with to try to prop up your flawed arguments.