To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

“With scientific advances we’ve identified chromosomal and genetic components to sex, as well as numerous types of variations in the development of reproductive organs and visible anatomy, providing evidence of independent genetic
coding for different elements of sexual reproduction.”

This is just distraction.

The categorisation of sex still requires a body to be assessed around the reproductive role what that body has been formed around. Either production of large gametes or small gametes.

“there is also some more recent research that has identified potential coding for both sexual orientation and gender identity in the brain which too can vary independent of the other components of sexual reproduction.”

What potential coding identified in the brain for gender identity? I have seen several recent posters attempt to claim this and their ‘evidence’ does not show what they try to claim it does. So please, post the links for this claim.

Is this a joke? 😂 I thought that’s what you all insisted on being called? It certainly isn’t my preferred terminology- I could think of other far more appropriate terms.

This makes no sense

If male, female, woman and trans are just words with no meaning then why do trans identified people need to use them at all!

Changing the word doesn't change the experience! Calling a man a woman isn't going to stop his continued experience that he is still in a fully male body and doesn't like it.

He can't move house!

And again with the dehumanising terminology. Imagine if posters used the ‘transes’! They would be rightly deleted.

But here you are using dehumanising terminology.

“MtoF” is a word. “Male” is a word. Female is a word. Woman is a word. Trans is a word.

I genuinely don't get the point of this response unless trying to claim words are just sounds without meaning?

Well it means in future that nobody will necessarily believe the sex on a passport.

Please what terminology would you prefer?

I don’t particularly like being called a “trans rights activist” either, but I put up with it .

And yet, any male person who redefines the female lived experience to suit their personal demands is acting misogynistically.

Just because you deny it doesn’t change the inherent misogyny in that action of that person. Again, reality abides despite your denial of it.

Yes, we were, but it is nearing bed time. So to continue in the morning, we were here:

Transwomen are male at birth.
Sex matters in healthcare, but not sports.
There are ideas about how gender identity in brains work but no concrete evidence or research, also no male or female brain classifications

We are here, my last comment you haven't answered yet:

Your multi faceted components of sex (internal reproductive organs, visual sexual anatomy, chromosomes and genetics) is an interesting one, if they didn't all fall into the two pathways. Again with variations, but it has been clearly documented, trans people do not have these variations, they fall into the two pathways and try to modify their visual sexual anatomy in a few cases to match those of the other pathway. Chromosomes, genetics, internal reproductive organs cannot be changed, so all in all, if you can only change a few small items, if you want to, I fail to see how anyone can claim to have changed their sex.

So I conclude based on your argument of multi dimensional sex, that even then humans can't change their sex. Do you disagree with that conclusion and if so, could you explain where you see things differently?

And yet, any male person who redefines the female lived experience to suit their personal demands is acting misogynistically.

this has got nothing to do with being trans.

Being trans has nothing to do with misogyny.

Care to explain what this post “No you!” means?

You made a statement that was false. And at even the very first glance is false.

And yet, it was you who declared that so many posters on this thread forgot female people who have transgender identities. So, that seems to be projection from you in light of your accusation.

Can you have a gender identity at odds with the sex you are born as if that gender identity doesn't exist as a sex?

You have repeatedly implied that the mere fact of being a trans woman is an act of misogyny.

So you make generalised statements on behalf of transgender people that reflect the incoherence of the belief?

And does that mean that we should not believe what those male people say?

Honestly I don’t understand your posts.

Yes I believe what those trans people say, it’s entirely compatible - reinforces in fact - how I repeatedly described trans experience on this thread.

I’m not sure what is confusing you here , but I don’t have the energy to unpack that for you.

I do like how the 72+ transgender identities question still actually hasn't been answered, just swerved with "they're words, just words!' non answer.

I think it's interesting becaus if you do believe in them then your reasoning for a person being trans earlier is nonsense. If you don't believe them then you're transphobic by you're own standards.

I have assumed this is so.

There are over 130 genders but no one seems to be including those genders in their points. I assumed long ago it is because some of those supposed allies don’t want to admit that they don’t believe in those identities.

You really don’t see what you did with the term did you? You are so used to dehumanising people who disagree with you that you just didn’t notice calling people the gender criticals.

Do you think someone should be deleted for using the term the transes?

There are over 130 genders but no one seems to be including those genders in their points. I assumed long ago it is because some of those supposed allies don’t want to admit that they don’t believe in those identities.

It's madness isn't it? Lostcat seems to ignore all other transgender identities. Thinks it's strange to bring in other trans identities but happily brings in non-binary? Make it make sense.

You are so used to dehumanising people who disagree with you

oh give it a rest 🙄. It’s just a short hand. I suppose I could have typed out “the people who hold what they like to call “gender critical” beliefs”, but I’m on my phone and it’s a mumsnet post.

Just like posters who declare that gender dysphoria is a requirement for being transgender.

The inconsistencies are obvious when you see them.

Genderfluid keeps getting ignored too.

The fact remains though, if a group of people didn’t demand that gender was prioritised over sex when sex matters, and male people respected female single sex provisions and didn’t demand that language be changed to include them in the words female people need to describe their unique needs and experiences, most of these conversations would not be happening.

@Helleofabore

You really don’t see what you did with the term did you? You are so used to dehumanising people who disagree with you that you just didn’t notice calling people the gender criticals.

Do you think someone should be deleted for using the term the transes?

I'm sorry, but this pomposity and lack of awareness made me LOL. Are you okay, then, Helle?

😂

🤣

It’s entirely to do with misogyny. And sexism. And homophobia. Without these things “trans” wouldn’t exist.

Without these things “trans” wouldn’t exist.

Ouch.

Not at all transphobic right? Nothing to see here…