To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

[OrangeCarrot]

I hear and read women often saying that their partner was amazing until a certain point (usually post kids) when they then turned abusive or horrible etc. I just don’t buy it. I can’t help but feel that these same women seem more likely to get into repeatedly abusive or toxic relationships.

I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust would help to give us the insight to avoid future abusive relationships.

Its possible to teach others to watch out for red flags without pretending they must have missed one. If you've never been caught out its because of luck, not good management.

When you grow up surrounded by red flags, you think they are normal and don’t look too bad.

Yabu. How could you possibly know that?

I think for many it’s easier to look back and realise what was going in their abusive relationship.

For me, the signs were there literally from day one. He love bombed me on our first date, it was very intense and I was uncomfortable with it. He went through my phone while I was asleep within a week of that and woke me up aggressively demanding who “all these men in my phone were” and calling me names. The person I am now would have dumped him on the spot But I didn’t trust my own judgment at the time. I was 18, he was nearly 30 so a huge power imbalance and I was easy to manipulate. I’d also grown up being emotionally and physically abused by my mother and had no other parent at home. My frame of reference on normal healthy relationships simply didn’t exist. The women (and many of their children sadly) I met in refuge had very similar upbringings and outcomes, lots much worse than mine. And yes, many repeated the cycle over and over often with worse and worse men.

I agree to an extent but it’s complex . Some people struggle to see the red flags because of their upbringing and their fixation with making it work, but I do think often they are there. Sometimes they’re genuinely missed but other times people close their eyes to them and just focus on their partners good points.

I had a co-worker whose mum is in a toxic marriage, her own Dad abandoned them and her stepdad who she also had kids with seemed awful. So perhaps that’s why she ignored the red flags in her husband who later became emotionally abusive, a cheat and aggressive . She had sang his praises the whole time I’d known her but when their 8 year marriage began to fall apart and I quizzed her on some things it came out at the very start of their relationship he had displayed some worrying signs like throwing a heavy boot at her in anger and he had also smacked their newborn when she was crying.

I think she was just so desperate for a family unit she shut her eyes to some things and hoped they would work out since his behaviour did improve afterwards. But the fact he had did those things in the first place showed his character really.

The first part of your post feels a bit victim-blamey. I suspect that yes, in many many abusive relationships there ARE red flags early on. But the problem is that the red flags aren't spotted because women have been socialised to accept surprisingly shitty behaviour. And to often, even when they DO flag up a potential issue, they're told they're "too fussy" or "too demanding" or "give him a chance" or "maybe he just...."

If I knew then what I know now, the very minor niggles I spotted early on in SIL's relationship would have generated MUCH bigger alarm bells AND I would have spotted a bunch of other red flags. But I didn't. and she certainly didn't. And PIL were in her ear already all the time about how "fussy" she was and how she "needed to settle down" and how she must "give him a chance."

I think it would be more helpful to acknowledge that behaviour can be on a trajectory. So rather than being always present and overlooked (the missed red flag) or a completely new behaviour out of nowhere, that it's most commonly a gradual and subtle escalation. So we start from the basis that everyone has faults. And one of your partners faults is that he is a bit short tempered. But never with you and its over quickly. Balanced against that he is lovely in every other way. Then over time it gets worse, boiling frog style until one day you are living with a man who yells in your face and punches the wall. So, with hindsight being 20/20 we can match that to the red flag of his early flashes of temper. But in all honesty, few people assume minor faults to be portents of intolerable behaviour down the line. Otherwise, given there is no one without fault, then we'd have no relationship with anyone.

Sorry, this sounds like victim-blaming.

There are any number of reasons why women (and men) end up in abusive relationships and there are also many reasons why people don't just walk away.

Too many people simply declare, "I'd never get myself into that situation, I'd have walked away after x,y,z".

It's not always that straightforward. Don't judge anyone else until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

How many of these mystery women who admit to only finding out about the abusive true nature of their partner (particularly after children) have you actually come across personally ?
And what are these mystery red flags you believe they should all be spotting in the first throws of romance?
You do realise Narcissits and Sociopaths are very good at hiding behind the mask of sanity for years and years and that they target empaths looking for love.
How do you suggest we lock this down?

No, sometimes there are no red flags until the relationship is well advanced. Abusers can be remarkably skilled at concealing their abusive intentions. Sometimes red flags are overlooked for one reason or another, but sometimes they just aren't there.

As last poster said. We are conditioned as women to put up with incredible levels of crap from men. Just look at some of the threads on here.

Don’t blame women for that

My father was abusive. I knew I wasn’t going down that route: The first sign was the last - but I have confidence to appreciate my own worth:

My daughters have been raised the same - no man is worth it.

My dearest friend escaped an extremely toxic relationship - it’s hard when they are in full throttle. Looking back she knows things weren’t right - she put up with a lot but just couldn’t escape, he spend all the money, controlled who she saw and what she did, kept asking for more babies etc

Blame themselves try to keep them happy walk on eggshells, it’s more complex than it being their own fault. It isn’t.

Men prey on woman, woman accept shitty behaviour because it’s all they’ve known.

Oh, another post blaming women who’ve been through abusive relationships for not recognising red flags at the time or not understanding the seriousness of them.

Cool cool cool cool cool cool cool

I remember that it was obvious so early on that exBIL was deeply insecure and it resulted in some really crap behaviours. But we were all so naive... he'd had a tough childhood (genuine) and a "crazy ex" (a red flag in itself, we now know) and so we all just thought that once he felt confident in his relationship with SIL, so many of these behaviours would, obviously, disappear.

<hollow laugh at our ridiculous naivete and cluelessness> But as a result, none of us thought his crappy behaviour was necessarily a deal breaker. And, as it turns out, SIL was hiding a lot of it from us too....

Victim blaming yay

There were loads of early red flags in my abusive relationship, but I didn't spot any of them because I absolutely did not understand them.

Actions not matching words

Gaslighting

Controlling behaviours

Losing his temper

Framing himself as a victim

I was young, inexperienced and came from an abusive home, so didn't have any decent male role models to learn from.

I think you are overly simplifying abusive relationships. If it was as simple as just spotting these red flags from the offset then all women would go on their merry way. This is not how abuse works, and your entire posts has a tone of victim-blaming.

Firstly, abuse absolutely can come out of the blue without warning. Someone can become abusive after many years of not exhibiting abusive behaviour. This is especially common when a woman is pregnant, or is in the peri/post natal period. It is a vulnerable and potentially dangerous time for women, add into that the risk of abuse escalating when actually leaving the relationship.

Also, assuming there are red flags, people don’t ignore these because they are ‘in lust’. We learn what healthy relationships and boundaries are from our own experiences and those around us when we are growing up. Those that have experienced trauma / abuse (including witnessing domestic abuse) particularly if it was repeated or prolonged, and they were never protected, may normalise unhealthy behaviours because it’s all they’ve known. It can be difficult for those who’ve grown up in safe and secure homes, with present and emotionally regulated parents to understand this. But if all you’ve known is love and security, then it is so much easier to notice ‘red flags’ because it is so alien to you. Abuse and trauma creates a fog so it’s hard for victims to trust their own thoughts and feelings. It also massively impacts self esteem and sense of self, leading people to believe they have deserved to be treated poorly. This is what can make people vulnerable to abuse; but it does not in any way blame them, the blame lies entirely with the abuser, always.

Have you heard of the boiling frog analogy? Often domestic abuse is insidious, it happens gradually over time. It can happen to any of us. By the time the abuse has escalated, the psychological abuse / coercive control has done a number on the persons self confidence and they doubt the validity of their own thoughts. This is how abuse works. And it is never as simple as as ‘just leave’.

I think it is absolutely important to encourage women to be confident and autonomous and empowered, to understand healthy relationships and boundaries, to be able to notice red flags and walk away. All of this should be taught in schools. There should be more help for those who experience abuse at any age, in order to heal and to break the pattern of entering into abusive dynamics. Men should not abuse women and girls in the first place, and should be held to account.

TLDR: Red flags are not missed due to lust, abuse is complex, victim blaming is wrong, men need to stop abusing women.

Red flags are often only apparent in hindsight, also those who are abusive tend to instinctively gravitate towards victims whom they sense will not see through them.

Its also interesting how often this comes up. With the constant theme being how can we rid women of trust, tolerance, seeing the best in people and optimism and turn them watchful, vigilant and suspicious. When really what we should be asking is how can we rid men of their entitlement to indulge their flaws and escalate their faults into intolerable behaviour. Always we ask what's wrong with women and pontificate about how they should fix themselves. Its like trying to stop a flood with a bucket rather than trying to turn off the tap.

I believe this is only partially true. I think that abusive people date as many potential victims as people who won't put up with it, but the difference is that the ones who won't put up with it either throw them back , or are thrown back, very early. you see it on MN all the time - a woman in a relatively new relationship, has some concerns, dumps the man. That man will just move on to the next person until he finds a woman who doesn't hear the alarm bells ringing with his early "tests" of whether he can get away with stuff.

@5128gap I totally agree. But I think it starts by getting women to recognise it, and call it out, and, as importantly, by society recognising it and calling it out. I'm so so tired of shitty behaviur being excused or justified by broader communities. How are we supposed to stamp out the crap behaviour if most of the time it's not even recognised as crap behaviour?

Oh yes definitely. The only abusive relationship I've been in was when I was very young and naive. I kind of assumed that abusive men didn't exist in my universe. I also thought I was in love and overlooked a few more minor initial incidents.

I also wonder whether abusers/bullies see themselves like that and whether it is always a conscious decision on their part to be abusive or bullying.

I guess sometimes it is, but many times they believe their own narrative and see themselves as the victims because someone else has stood up to them.

My ex was horribly abusive for a number of years. He was also charming, well-liked, seemingly popular and had a long previous marriage where he and his ex were still "close" (a little too close imo).

Whenever he was challenged on anything he'd lose his temper, but turned it around to make it my fault. I thought it must be me because his ex had been with him so long and was seemingly still so dedicated towards him.

I walked away, got together with someone else and as soon as he knew this he was begging for me to take him back. I put conditions on trying again. Within a month we were back in the same place.

I walked away again and now he's back to trying to charm his away back again. Now I understand why he's too close to his ex. He's been doing the same to her. Never truly letting her go, promising to be just friends, which always ends up with something more.

It takes a lot to just block and delete someone you care deeply about, especially if you are isolated (possibly by them) yourself.

It's way more complex than just spotting red-flags. None of us are robots and we always want to believe the best of others.

@SwordToFlamethrower very similar to me, although my dad was lovely so it wasn't even that. I was just clueless. Not enough life experience.

I also wonder whether abusers/bullies see themselves like that and whether it is always a conscious decision on their part to be abusive or bullying.
I guess sometimes it is, but many times they believe their own narrative and see themselves as the victims because someone else has stood up to them.

I think this is also very important. It's often difficult for women to spot abusive behaviour or abusive men because the narrative eis that abusive men do it on purpose, they plan it, they're bad... and they can't get their head around it.

And the truth is that lots of abusive people are not, in fact, doing it on purpose. even when they're testing boundaries at the beginning of a relationship, they're not consciously htinking, "let me see how she reacts when I do this thing so I can decide if she'll let me abuse her more later." But rather, if the woman does NOT accept that thing, as you say, he moves on from that relationship thinking that the woman was "hard work" or "crazy" or "ridiculously demanding" or whatever.

YANBU.

Short of a brain injury causing a genuine change in personality I believe there will be signs from very early on. Unfortunately many women have been programmed to see dominance and possessiveness as signs of strength, and are actively seeking these qualities. Other women just aren't in any position to choose, or go into the relationship so young they lack an adult understanding.

I don't think it is victim blaming to say most of these men are identifiable from very early in a relationship. I think pretending they are subtle masters of manipulation is less helpful than looking at the many reasons that women choose these men, and choose to stay with them, despite the obvious red flags.