To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

[OrangeCarrot]

I hear and read women often saying that their partner was amazing until a certain point (usually post kids) when they then turned abusive or horrible etc. I just don’t buy it. I can’t help but feel that these same women seem more likely to get into repeatedly abusive or toxic relationships.

I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust would help to give us the insight to avoid future abusive relationships.

Exactly, it's a pattern of behaviour - there are really no 'red flags' early on. More like a slowly building red mist - by definition can't be noticed early on. Some people are openly dicks which is when the relationship breaks down early.

Bit of a drip feed - if she eats lunch in a different place than usual he call to ask why. I find it gross but I don't hold her responsible for deciding it not worth breaking up her family over it. I agree it will escalate if and when he hits personal difficulties or she pushes back.

I don't disagree that there are often red flags from the start but my son told me of a quote he read/heard somewhere - when you are looking through rose tinted glasses, all the red flags just look like flags and I think tha ti's true for a lot of people.

I agree with the posters who say the signs are often there but women ignore them for a multitude of reasons or don't recognise them as red flags.

How many threads are there on here where a woman details a litany of poor behaviours by a man and asks how she can help him?

How many times do women post to say her husband has left her or she's discovered cheating and is devastated only to go on to say she'd 'got past' similar early on in their relationship?

I think most people wonder how someone is only asking for help with they are pregnant with their third or fourth child when the behaviours she's describing have been there from the start.

I often say on threads that the signs are usually there (most recently on the threads about men not pulling their weight around the house or being fun suckers) and I'm sorry but I do think that there are signs from the start in many cases but women overlook them or don't recognise them as signs.

It's not blaming women for men's behaviour - those men are responaible forntheir behaviours - but the women have ignored those behaviours and married them anyway. Or realised he was lazy after the first child but still went on to have more. Or caught him cheating early on but got past it because they loved him and wanted it to work.

Upbringing has a lot to do with it and that is acknowledged every time a woman is encouraged to leave a shit relationship because, by staying, she's teaching her children what relationships look like.

People grow up thinking that's just what marriage is like or that's just how men behave - when it's not. And then all men get demonised as lazy, abusive, controlling, inherently selfish when they're not. But they are often more dynamic, confident and exciting to date in the early stages.

Some relationships are dangerous for women to leave and they are stuck between a rock and a hard place but it wasn't always like that. On this thread already someone has said they don't hit you on the first date they start by... and that is when the relationship should end. The first time you think, "Hang on, i dont like that!" But before it's become 'bad'.

There are still posts where a woman asks about his behaviours at the early dating stage but goes on to say that he's very good looking or he earns good money. As if those are tangible virtues that matter.

We, as a society, need to do better. We need to bring our children up to know their own worth and how to treat others but we don't.

And it runs very deep. Eg I don't watch films with female nudity or violence/sexual violence against women and you'd have no idea how difficult that is to avoid. The obligatory naked women in a shower scene, rape as a part of a normal storyline... I've been told on here in the past that I'm an adult and shouldn't have a problem with nudity or things that reflect real life but every time women are diminished in the eyes of men; everytime we see men assert power over women; everything time we see it as inevitable it harms all women.

This resonates with me.

I’m not surprised by the 50/50 split so far, I appreciate it’s a controversial take.

My dad was abusive and my mum suffers to this day. I grew up realising that the relationships people choose are one of, if not the single, biggest decisions we make in our lives. I think that’s why it baffles me when people rush into relationships with men and then are shocked when things turn ugly.

But of course I get that it’s nuanced. My sister chose an abusive (soon to be ex) husband. She rushed into it. The red flags were clear to see but she wouldn’t entertain my concerns. Now she is suffering.

It’s painful to see the people you care about get into these situations.

I wholeheartedly agree with an excellent post above about how these kinds of things should be taught at school.

I agree with teaching it at schools. I often spoke to my sister and friends and would say ‘he said this’ or ‘he is sulking again’ they would say ‘that’s normal, that’s men for you, you should see what my DH does, it’s worse!!’

Not realising that I mean ‘he is doing things every day’ not just when he is under stress. This behaviour has gone from once in a blue moon, to my everyday now.

It is being taught at school in an age appropriate way from Reception. But people's families are their first and most important educators.

And schools can't do everything.

If you are being abused, you are not responsible for the behaviour of your abuser. By your logic, murder victims should also take responsibility for their deaths.

What an arrogant first post op.

It's not a one size fits all issue. Some women are more accepting of bad behaviour than others from the outset. We all have different tolerance levels.

I'm guessing that he's always been like this and she thinks it's a sign of love. I doubt this is his only concerning behaviour.

IMO, there will be signs early on. It's very unusual for a respectful, considerate, empathetic man to start visiting strip clubs, doing coke and expecting his wife to skivvy around after children.

Victim blaming much?
Just like when people say, “well you must have loved him, you had x children with him, it can’t have been all that bad!”
As others here have said, behaviour is excused by women especially in families particularly if they have excused that kind of behaviour themselves.
Kneejerk reactions to some women trying to leave their controlling relationships can often be “stay with them until the youngest turns 18” and doing the opposite is perceived as a slight against them as they might have put up with misery themselves because “that’s just what dad is like”.
Some controlling individuals can be insecure yet from a wealthy family so use that as a weapon against the woman trying to leave, particularly SAHMs with no income or family wealth to assist with legal aid.
And yet the men still paint themselves to be the victim and it continues for their subsequent relationships. I especially believe there must be red flags for those new relationships, unless they have had a lobotomy.

It is not victim blaming to have a discussion about how we can miss red flags early on in relationships for a variety of reasons. My AIBU was about how I felt red flags were often present early on. There’s been really thoughtful replies so far on either side of the discussion.

The fault of the abuse is with the abuser. No one denies that.

It’s like teaching your kids not to take sweets from a stranger. By doing that you’re not victim blaming your kid if something happened… you’re trying to have discussions about the risks of things and how they can protect themselves from danger.

One of the problems a lot of posters on mumsnet have is that they can’t have a nuanced discussion without restoring to hostility and defensiveness.

What are you on about?

Women are not to blame for men being abusive. End of.

Relationships are certainly covered in PHSE in all school stages.

As a teacher, though, I'm always struck by the naivete of posters who think that schools are somehow separate from the rest of society.

Mostly female teachers. Often rather young. Often managed out or feel forced to quit once they have their own families (more women in their 30s leave teaching every year than the total number of men in teaching). Some in coercive or otherwise dodgy relationships. Mostly men in the management structure. Significant gender pay gap.

It’s not the same as that though, and again by giving that example you are showing your ignorance.

Trauma and abuse is complex and cannot just be reduced down to ‘spotting red flags’, as my previous post, and many others, have illustrated.

People aren’t hostile. We are sick and tired of these sorts of threads, that are inherently victim blaming but under the faux guise of ‘nuanced discussion’. You’ve not put forward anything new or fresh or ‘controversial’ - you are just wrong. It is akin to those threads which doubt peoples experiences of racism - that’s just a ‘nuanced discussion’ too of course.

As a teacher, though, I'm always struck by the naivete of posters who think that schools are somehow separate from the rest of society.

Totally agree with this!

A lot of domestic abuse starts or gets worse during pregnancy so if it starts during pregnancy a lot of the time then how would the women know before hand? There aren't signs in a lot of cases. A lot of domestic abusers are charming and appear lovely to work colleagues/ neighbours etc so they are very capable of putting on a front. So no there aren't always signs and blaming women for "not spitting the signs" is very damaging as abuse already makes the victim feel guilty and as if they are to blame and they are more likely to stay if they feel shame for leaving and admitting they have been in an abusive relationship.
In other cases there are signs but the victim isn't aware that they are signs.

But what a reg flag is depends entirely on whether the it escalates - not the behaviour itself. Example I know of bevaviour of non-abusive relationships I know of:

DH doesn't bother staying quiet in the morning when going out early to allow wife to continue sleeping until alarm goes off.
DH doesn't bother helping wife empty car when arriving at second home (they also have young children so lots of extra crap to unload)
DH calling wife to 'make sure she's safe' if she has lunch in a different location.

None of these behaviours are abuse in themselves I think is reasonble. Or is this abuse? All these are well paid professional couples both man (FT work) and wife (PT work) and invested a lot of time and energy into their relationships before DC came along.

These could all be seen as 'red flags' IMO should the relationship become abusive. They are not yet red flags as the behaviour hasn't escalated (yet). So yes, if their relationships become abusive then the red flags were there. If the relationship does not become abusive then there were no red flags. The red flags are only there when the abuse starts.

It’s just the fact that you are so disbelieving of VICTIMS that sometimes there are no signs of abuse. I had no indicators in my relationship. I’ve spent many years beating myself up about my choices and analysing every detail of our earlier relationship. There was nothing to suggest the person he became. His friends who have seen his behaviour change are convinced he has a brain tumour or psychosis because they didn’t see it coming either.

Individually I wouldn’t say these were red flags but taken as a whole then this man is showing that he doesn’t care for his partner’s feelings well-being and some signs of controlling behavior.

So, yes, taken as a whole those would be red flags for me and something that would give me pause before taking the relationship further.

But I get your point that people have different thresholds in terms of what they let slide. And also that in retrospect things that didn’t cross the threshold in the past can now be seen as a red flag after the abuse is out in the open.

I disagree. You can have a nuanced discussion about this or racism without discounting people’s experiences.

I’ve never said I’ve come up with anything new. If you don’t want to discuss it or feel it has been discussed before, just move on.

I respect that you disagree with my AIBU. That’s the point of these threads. Rarely is anything black or white.

No women are not to be blamed for men being abusive but if men are abusive before you are pregnant it is a bit odd and irresponsible to keep on having children with him.

Men and Women are responsible for letting children grow up in that environment, and both responsible for bringing new abusive partners into their children's lives because they don't want to be alone and put themselves first before what is best for their children

Thank you for sharing. It’s these kinds of lived experiences that make me doubt my initial viewpoint.

As someone who had an abusive childhood and went on to have abusive relationships, I would 100% agree @OrangeCarrot that there are red flags that are missed. They are missed because abused people more often than not have no idea what a red flag is, or they do but only on a superficial / intellectual level not on a deep emotional level of what is healthy behaviour in a relationship and what isn't.

It takes years to unravel that shit and then learn healthy new behaviours - I speak from experience. Until I had proper long-term therapy to address the abuse I had endured in childhood, I understood very little about what a healthy relationship looked like - let alone how to behave in one myself.

So, whilst I agree that red flags are absolutely definitely missed, I also think it is a limited way of looking at what is going on and doesn't really get to the "why", which is actually the more important question.

My AIBU was about how I felt red flags were often present early on.

Your thread title says “always” not often so some folks will be responding to that.

Always and often are very different viewpoints.

Some people do miss red flags, but that they are always there is completely victim blaming and downright wrong.