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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

209 replies

OrangeCarrot · 10/12/2024 22:14

I hear and read women often saying that their partner was amazing until a certain point (usually post kids) when they then turned abusive or horrible etc. I just don’t buy it. I can’t help but feel that these same women seem more likely to get into repeatedly abusive or toxic relationships.

I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust would help to give us the insight to avoid future abusive relationships.

OP posts:
tigger1001 · 11/12/2024 11:39

"Why is it awful reading? Do you think people that miss red flags should be shamed or blamed or are somehow lesser victims? I feel this is where a lot of the defensiveness is coming from and it's really unhelpful.

If there are always some red flags that are detectable by some people then this is hugely empowering for people. It means that there is a way to improve the odds of not getting drawn into an abusive relationship again by spotting the signs earlier."

The reverse is also true though - it makes it incredibly difficult for these who didn't spot the warning signs. It's not that others shame these victims (although some undoubtedly do) or that they are lessor victims - but that's very much likely how they feel themselves.

Dv is incredibly complex. And it's not helpful to these who are in the middle of it to talk about the red flags that were/or were not there before it became abusive.

I'm a dv survivor. And the boiling frog analogy was very accurate for me. And the abuse started long before it got physical. Slowly manipulating and gaslighting.

When others started to notice the physical abuse, they tried to help by saying things like "I'd never stay with a man who hit me" "there are always choices" never in direct conversation but in general terms. It made it so much harder for me, as I already felt worthless and their less than delicate attempts to help just added to it.

I4gotmyname · 11/12/2024 11:43

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 11:25

I don't think you're necessarily victim blaming but I think you have some internalised the idea that accepting that there are always red flags (no matter how subtle they may be) would mean that the abuse was somehow avoidable and therefore the victim is somehow to blame. Hence why you think this thread would be difficult reading for victims because you think they would assume that they should have identified the red flags.

My point is that we all have strengths and weaknesses and some us aren't as good as others at spotting red flags and understanding what they mean. There is no shame associated with that but it obviously would be a good thing to work on for self preservation. To pretend that abuse sometimes just comes out of absolutely nowhere is almost certainly wrong. It might well feel like that to the victim but I imagine a professional in the field would have been able to spot signs before the victim considers the abuse started. Very few of us would have the level of insight of a professional but it is proof that we can all work on this and improve our radar and response.

I have no idea what your taking about i have nothing about accepting there are red flags.

I'm almost thinking you have quoted the wrong person maybe. I don't know but if you did mean to quote me then you have read my post totally wrong . I dont know how you managed to get all that you have from my post

Diomi · 11/12/2024 11:56

Also, a red flag isn’t necessarily a red flag.

Temper loss - definitely considered a red flag on mn, but lots of people lose their temper occasionally and are not abusive. Does that mean that anyone who has ever lost their temper should not be in a relationship.

Controlling - also a mn red flag. A lot of my friends are very controlling but whilst it can be annoying, it isn’t abusive in any of them.

It is easy to say with hindsight that they were red flags but not so easy to know that an imperfect human being(which all of us are) will turn into an abuser.

OhBling · 11/12/2024 11:59

@Bumpitybumper I disagree with your assessment of @I4gotmyname posts. She seems very clearly to be saying that reading posts on this thread that victim blame must be really difficult for women who have been in abusive relationships.

Borninabarn32 · 11/12/2024 12:07

Oh absolutely. But they work quick. I felt stuck in my relationship with exDH from weeks in. And you just get more and more trapped. I broke out after 10 years and it was actually surprisingly easy, I just walked out with nothing and started again.

I was an easy target though for various reasons and would probably have ended up in another abusive relationship had I not by fluke met DP.

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:21

OhBling · 11/12/2024 11:59

@Bumpitybumper I disagree with your assessment of @I4gotmyname posts. She seems very clearly to be saying that reading posts on this thread that victim blame must be really difficult for women who have been in abusive relationships.

I understand that but I think she is claiming that anyone that suggests that there are always red flags is victim blaming somehow and therefore making victims of abuse feel bad. I don't agree with this!

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:21

I4gotmyname · 11/12/2024 11:43

I have no idea what your taking about i have nothing about accepting there are red flags.

I'm almost thinking you have quoted the wrong person maybe. I don't know but if you did mean to quote me then you have read my post totally wrong . I dont know how you managed to get all that you have from my post

Edited

Apologies if I have misinterpreted your post.

OhBling · 11/12/2024 12:23

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:21

I understand that but I think she is claiming that anyone that suggests that there are always red flags is victim blaming somehow and therefore making victims of abuse feel bad. I don't agree with this!

I think you might be getting her confused with someone else, I don't think so! Grin

TaylorSwish · 11/12/2024 12:25

Love bombing usually happens and in your mind that hides the red flags.

I4gotmyname · 11/12/2024 12:27

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:21

I understand that but I think she is claiming that anyone that suggests that there are always red flags is victim blaming somehow and therefore making victims of abuse feel bad. I don't agree with this!

Your wrong i never said such a thing

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:29

tigger1001 · 11/12/2024 11:39

"Why is it awful reading? Do you think people that miss red flags should be shamed or blamed or are somehow lesser victims? I feel this is where a lot of the defensiveness is coming from and it's really unhelpful.

If there are always some red flags that are detectable by some people then this is hugely empowering for people. It means that there is a way to improve the odds of not getting drawn into an abusive relationship again by spotting the signs earlier."

The reverse is also true though - it makes it incredibly difficult for these who didn't spot the warning signs. It's not that others shame these victims (although some undoubtedly do) or that they are lessor victims - but that's very much likely how they feel themselves.

Dv is incredibly complex. And it's not helpful to these who are in the middle of it to talk about the red flags that were/or were not there before it became abusive.

I'm a dv survivor. And the boiling frog analogy was very accurate for me. And the abuse started long before it got physical. Slowly manipulating and gaslighting.

When others started to notice the physical abuse, they tried to help by saying things like "I'd never stay with a man who hit me" "there are always choices" never in direct conversation but in general terms. It made it so much harder for me, as I already felt worthless and their less than delicate attempts to help just added to it.

I totally get this but it doesn't make it factually less true that the red flags or clues or whatever you want to call it are present. Of course, not everyone in that situation wants to hear about these red flags or even is in a position to be helped or to receive encouraging comments. It is a complex and hugely sensitive topic but I think we need to stay within the realms of fact when talking generally about abuse and what we can do to prevent it.

So I totally understand that a victim may feel better thinking that there were absolutely no signs and it could happen to anybody. It stops them feeling weak or stupid. In reality though, not spotting the red flags doesn't make them weak or stupid either. They are probably being manipulated by a highly skilled person that they love. It is very hard to contemplate for lots of people, especially because they are so close to the subject and therefore much less likely to see the red flags compared to outsiders looking in.

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:30

I4gotmyname · 11/12/2024 12:27

Your wrong i never said such a thing

I have apologies. Sorry! I obviously misinterpreted your post.

I4gotmyname · 11/12/2024 12:32

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:21

Apologies if I have misinterpreted your post.

The thing is . This is what can happen even in a DV situation the victim/survivor's or family effected can say something it can be totally misunderstood. The person then tries to explain they have misunderstood/got it wrong. The person the argues no they have not . The victim/survivor's then gives up trying.

It's really not nice having to battle for what I actually said and explain what I did not say. Especially when it's something we are still going though

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:44

I4gotmyname · 11/12/2024 12:32

The thing is . This is what can happen even in a DV situation the victim/survivor's or family effected can say something it can be totally misunderstood. The person then tries to explain they have misunderstood/got it wrong. The person the argues no they have not . The victim/survivor's then gives up trying.

It's really not nice having to battle for what I actually said and explain what I did not say. Especially when it's something we are still going though

You wrote:
This is an awful thread. Victims, survivor's or even families effected by the lose of someone through DV must feel great readying this
The controversy on this thread is that the OP suggested that there are always red flags. Many people have argued this is victim blaming. In this context I interpreted what you have written to mean that victims would feel bad reading this thread because some people were insisting that red flags were always present.

You then responded to me suggesting I had accused you of victim blaming which I hadn't done. I think tried to reiterate what I had actually said. You then said that your initial paragraph wasn't about red flags (which is what the whole thread is about) and I apologised for misinterpreting your post.

Written communication is difficult and people can easily take things out of context. I don't really think this warrants being compared to an abusive situation. It's a case of crossed wires. I accepted I was at fault when you made it clear that I had read your post incorrectly and apologised quickly. Before this I thought you had misinterpreted what I had written and was trying to gain a common understanding. I am sorry for your family's situation but please don't blow a few posts on the internet from a stranger completely out of proportion.

Dontlletmedownbruce · 11/12/2024 12:46

I think there are also traits or aspects of a relationship that both parties are guilty of implementing and a change of those routines triggers the abuse. For example the couple who do everything together and let all their own friendships fade away suddenly have a baby in the mix, or couples who both don't allow each other talk to the opposite sex until the woman has a new male colleague and this starts a cycle of abuse. Had it been the other way the woman could have become the controlling one because the basis of their relationship was control. Neither of them would see this as a red flag because it was their norm, but in hindsight it was obvious.

I4gotmyname · 11/12/2024 12:50

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:44

You wrote:
This is an awful thread. Victims, survivor's or even families effected by the lose of someone through DV must feel great readying this
The controversy on this thread is that the OP suggested that there are always red flags. Many people have argued this is victim blaming. In this context I interpreted what you have written to mean that victims would feel bad reading this thread because some people were insisting that red flags were always present.

You then responded to me suggesting I had accused you of victim blaming which I hadn't done. I think tried to reiterate what I had actually said. You then said that your initial paragraph wasn't about red flags (which is what the whole thread is about) and I apologised for misinterpreting your post.

Written communication is difficult and people can easily take things out of context. I don't really think this warrants being compared to an abusive situation. It's a case of crossed wires. I accepted I was at fault when you made it clear that I had read your post incorrectly and apologised quickly. Before this I thought you had misinterpreted what I had written and was trying to gain a common understanding. I am sorry for your family's situation but please don't blow a few posts on the internet from a stranger completely out of proportion.

I can't even ve bothered to read your posts. I have told you several times. You have mis understood me . And someone else pointed it out to you to . You then constantly write long winded posts. Which I have no idea what your taking about. Telling me what I said and what I mean ... I know what I mean and I know what I said .

I4gotmyname · 11/12/2024 12:56

Bumpitybumper · 11/12/2024 12:44

You wrote:
This is an awful thread. Victims, survivor's or even families effected by the lose of someone through DV must feel great readying this
The controversy on this thread is that the OP suggested that there are always red flags. Many people have argued this is victim blaming. In this context I interpreted what you have written to mean that victims would feel bad reading this thread because some people were insisting that red flags were always present.

You then responded to me suggesting I had accused you of victim blaming which I hadn't done. I think tried to reiterate what I had actually said. You then said that your initial paragraph wasn't about red flags (which is what the whole thread is about) and I apologised for misinterpreting your post.

Written communication is difficult and people can easily take things out of context. I don't really think this warrants being compared to an abusive situation. It's a case of crossed wires. I accepted I was at fault when you made it clear that I had read your post incorrectly and apologised quickly. Before this I thought you had misinterpreted what I had written and was trying to gain a common understanding. I am sorry for your family's situation but please don't blow a few posts on the internet from a stranger completely out of proportion.

You say about blowing it out of proportion? It's quite a sensitive thread. And to be accused of saying something that I did not even after I pointed it out that I think you have misunderstood. You still kept going on. And it took someone else to cone along and say you misunderstood. My post was a simple post and you turned it into something else. Making me look like a bad person

NeedToChangeName · 11/12/2024 13:01

Plastictrees · 10/12/2024 22:47

I think you are overly simplifying abusive relationships. If it was as simple as just spotting these red flags from the offset then all women would go on their merry way. This is not how abuse works, and your entire posts has a tone of victim-blaming.

Firstly, abuse absolutely can come out of the blue without warning. Someone can become abusive after many years of not exhibiting abusive behaviour. This is especially common when a woman is pregnant, or is in the peri/post natal period. It is a vulnerable and potentially dangerous time for women, add into that the risk of abuse escalating when actually leaving the relationship.

Also, assuming there are red flags, people don’t ignore these because they are ‘in lust’. We learn what healthy relationships and boundaries are from our own experiences and those around us when we are growing up. Those that have experienced trauma / abuse (including witnessing domestic abuse) particularly if it was repeated or prolonged, and they were never protected, may normalise unhealthy behaviours because it’s all they’ve known. It can be difficult for those who’ve grown up in safe and secure homes, with present and emotionally regulated parents to understand this. But if all you’ve known is love and security, then it is so much easier to notice ‘red flags’ because it is so alien to you. Abuse and trauma creates a fog so it’s hard for victims to trust their own thoughts and feelings. It also massively impacts self esteem and sense of self, leading people to believe they have deserved to be treated poorly. This is what can make people vulnerable to abuse; but it does not in any way blame them, the blame lies entirely with the abuser, always.

Have you heard of the boiling frog analogy? Often domestic abuse is insidious, it happens gradually over time. It can happen to any of us. By the time the abuse has escalated, the psychological abuse / coercive control has done a number on the persons self confidence and they doubt the validity of their own thoughts. This is how abuse works. And it is never as simple as as ‘just leave’.

I think it is absolutely important to encourage women to be confident and autonomous and empowered, to understand healthy relationships and boundaries, to be able to notice red flags and walk away. All of this should be taught in schools. There should be more help for those who experience abuse at any age, in order to heal and to break the pattern of entering into abusive dynamics. Men should not abuse women and girls in the first place, and should be held to account.

TLDR: Red flags are not missed due to lust, abuse is complex, victim blaming is wrong, men need to stop abusing women.

Great post

TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis · 11/12/2024 13:01

SoUnsureWhatToDo · 10/12/2024 22:35

Sorry, this sounds like victim-blaming.

There are any number of reasons why women (and men) end up in abusive relationships and there are also many reasons why people don't just walk away.

Too many people simply declare, "I'd never get myself into that situation, I'd have walked away after x,y,z".

It's not always that straightforward. Don't judge anyone else until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

I think it's also worth saying that victims often end up in their situations because of positive personality traits.

They are forgiving, warm, people-focused and care about others.

I am selfish, arrogant, critical and can be a bit of a cold fish. I am less likely to be a victim of abuse for these reasons, but not because I'm a better/smarter person.

Viviennemary · 11/12/2024 13:03

OrangeCarrot · 10/12/2024 22:14

I hear and read women often saying that their partner was amazing until a certain point (usually post kids) when they then turned abusive or horrible etc. I just don’t buy it. I can’t help but feel that these same women seem more likely to get into repeatedly abusive or toxic relationships.

I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust would help to give us the insight to avoid future abusive relationships.

No I don't agree that there are always red flags. Sometimes there are but by no means always.

OriginalUsername2 · 11/12/2024 13:05

3luckystars · 10/12/2024 22:25

When you grow up surrounded by red flags, you think they are normal and don’t look too bad.

This.

And you have your own mum saying “Yeah, that’s just what men are like..”

Plastictrees · 11/12/2024 13:08

I can see where you’re coming from @Bumpitybumper but you are wrong about how to discern ‘red flags’ / unhealthy behaviour and I will try to explain why.

Comparing riddles with noticing unhealthy or toxic behaviour is not a like for like comparison. Problem solving skills can be learnt, refined and developed. Recognising abusive behaviour is largely influenced by our early experiences, things which are outside of our control - attachment with parents, early experiences of safety and reciprocity in relationships, adversity and trauma, our environment, witnessing our parents and siblings relationships, etc. From this we develop a subconscious template for how relationships work and what is normal. Therefore someone who has experienced interpersonal trauma, who did not feel safe at home, who witnessed DV, for instance - is much more likely to normalise abusive behaviour as they grow up. Because it is what they know to be normal. This is not a matter of intelligence or logic, otherwise this issue would indeed be easy to solve - this all happens on a subconscious, emotional level. People become conditioned to feeling unsafe in relationships as they do not know anything different. So when a partner shouts at them or speaks to them disparagingly, it is not met with the same jolt of shock (underpinned with the belief that this is not okay) as if this were to happen to someone without a history of abuse - because it feels familiar, it is what they have learnt relationships are like. This is exactly WHY this ‘all people should notice red flags’ narrative IS victim blaming - because it implies it’s a failure on the woman’s part to not be perceptive enough, not intelligent or knowledgeable enough to prevent being abused. But we are not all at the same starting point when it comes to recognising abuse for what it is, so it is very unfair to assume otherwise, and that it can just be learnt like solving a rubics cube.

Even if someone does not have a history of abuse or trauma, and has read about ‘red flags’ this does not make them immune to domestic abuse. Many types of abuse, including psychological and emotional abuse, and coercive control, happen very gradually which is why I referenced the boiling frog analogy in my earlier post. Men can often become abusive at a time when a woman is more vulnerable; pregnancy, following illness or bereavement, acute stress. Abusive tactics such as gaslighting serve to undermine a persons sense of self and reality, causing doubt and confusion. The abuser will continue to minimise and manipulate, it is very difficult to spot these behaviours when you are in the situation. And there may not be ‘warning signs’ until you are. Chronic abuse can massively negatively impact someone’s self esteem and self worth and their entire belief system - they end up believing it’s their fault and they cannot ‘do better’ which is one of many reasons why leaving is so hard.

It is NOT comparable to solving a riddle as people who are in abusive relationships do not lack knowledge or intelligence, they often have not had the safe and secure relationships needed to form a healthy working model of what healthy relationships FEEL like. Woman do not need to read lists of red flags; they often still won’t recognise the abuse they are experiencing. Women need to be able to trust their feelings; to recognise when they feel on egg shells; but this isn’t something that can be taught by reading. It takes experience of a healthy relationship to know what one is. Of course I still think there is value in learning about signs of abuse, boundaries etc but it is too simplistic to suggest this alone will stop women being abused. More focus should be on preventing violence against women and girls, and increasing systemic support for vulnerable groups who may be more at risk. These sorts of posts created by the OP, written in an inflammatory and dismissive way, do nothing to improve our understanding of abuse or how to stop men abusing. It is a complex problems that requires a complex solution.

OhBling · 11/12/2024 13:08

TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis · 11/12/2024 13:01

I think it's also worth saying that victims often end up in their situations because of positive personality traits.

They are forgiving, warm, people-focused and care about others.

I am selfish, arrogant, critical and can be a bit of a cold fish. I am less likely to be a victim of abuse for these reasons, but not because I'm a better/smarter person.

So true. I am the least people pleasing person ever in that I will absolutely try hard to make people feel comfortable and I try to be kind etc, but I've never had a problem saying no when I need to. And I like to think I do it in a polite, and friendly way. I've never felt obligated, for example, to be friends with someone just because they want to be friends with me and similarly, I've never taken it personally if someone I want to be friends with doesn't have the time or energy to build that relationship.

Which means that a couple of red flaggish type things DH did in the early days were very quickly nipped in the bud by me - I din't see them as red flags, I just thought they were ridiculous. If he'd been a man who was wedded to abusive behaviour, we'd have broken up. Instead, he realised he was being a dick, apologised and we all moved on.

MargoLivebetter · 11/12/2024 13:09

I think the use of the word "victim" is not particularly helpful in this thread. I was abused as a child and an adult but I do not attribute the label of victim to myself. I am a survivor of other people's abuse.

I also don't think that the use of the word "blame" is helpful either. Acknowledging that a person missed unhealthy behavioural patterns in someone else (red flags) doesn't mean that you are "blaming" them for being abused. We need to acknowledge that some people are trapped in hideous relationship styles because they know no better. If we were all able to do this, we might be able to recognise it in ourselves, recognise it in others and educate our children better.

Abuse is widespread and common. It can be mental, physical, sexual, financial etc and combinations thereof. We have to be able to discuss it openly with some degree of objectivity, even though for people who were abused that can be very challenging sometimes. Abuse shouldn't be a sensitive subject, it should be a widely and openly talked about subject and there should be far more education in school about it. This thread alone shows what a huge amount of education is needed!!!

Itisallgoingtobeok · 11/12/2024 13:14

@Plastictrees - excellent summary of what domestic abuse really looks like.