To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

[OrangeCarrot]

I hear and read women often saying that their partner was amazing until a certain point (usually post kids) when they then turned abusive or horrible etc. I just don’t buy it. I can’t help but feel that these same women seem more likely to get into repeatedly abusive or toxic relationships.

I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust would help to give us the insight to avoid future abusive relationships.

That’s true.

I still don’t think that saying people miss red flags is victim blaming. I’m not saying people are willfully missing them or trying to get into abusive relationships. I think we can all appreciate there are complex reasons why they would be missed.

@OrangeCarrot All you need to do is a cursory google search on the psychology of trauma and abuse, which will make you ‘doubt your initial viewpoint’. Your viewpoint is born out of ignorance.

I disagree! I think that it's totally possible to accept somebody's lived experience that they weren't aware of any red flags before the abuse began and also accept that there were objectively some red flags that some people would have spotted.

I have had a few friends that have suffered through abusive relationships and all of them without fail have had partners that other people were concerned about before the abuse started. I have met several of these men and on a few occasions I have instantly known they were capable of being abusive without there being any obvious, tangible sign. It's hard to articulate but I genuinely believe some people are just more attuned to this than others. It's not victim blaming to acknowledge this, it's just fact! In the same way we acknowledge that some people are just naturally better at spatial awareness or maths or anything else. Some people are better at reading people and can pickup extremely subtle verbal and non verbal cues that other people can't.

I still don’t think that saying people miss red flags is victim blaming. I’m not saying people are willfully missing them or trying to get into abusive relationships. I think we can all appreciate there are complex reasons why they would be missed.

Saying that there are always red flags missed is victim blaming as it’s suggesting that there must have been an opportunity for them to see it and they didn’t.

That is simply wrong. In many cases there are no red flags to miss.

@Edingril It is really not as simple as that. Many may experience sexual abuse within relationships and pregnancy is a vulnerable time for women where abuse is likely to escalate. Same as when a woman attempts to leave the relationship.

There needs to be better systems in place to prevent women from abuse in the first place, and more support to leave abuse. Importantly men should be held to account for their behaviour.

I think most people would agree that in many many cases there are red flags that are missed. But blaming women for this "oh, why didnt she leave before she had children?" "why did she let it get that far" is the bit of victim blaming that gets people's backs up.

Because the reason she didn't spot it or didn't leave is complex, with many layers. In SIL's case she'd been told by her parents for years that she was too fussy, that she kept letting "good men" go because she had ridiculous expectations. They told her over and over again that she was getting old and if she wanted children she needed to get on with it and stop ending perfectly good relationships. This is further complicated by the fact that she has always been seen as the irresponsible, silly, unreliable one - even though she's the one who bends over backwards for her family. On top of that, she's a kind person and exBIL presented as someone who had experienced a lot of trauma and just needed some love and understanding to build his confidence. So between that and her family, she felt she deserved his behaviours. And I don't thik it's a coincidence that she only FINALLY started making moves to end it after PIL finally started to see what he was really like and supported her (and quite honestly, that only happened because I lost my temper and pointed out some home truths to them a few times).

So yes, we need better education. we need men to step up more. we need to all stop accepting shitty behaviour or saying things like, "oh, what are men like? haha". We need men in the workplace to stop getting away with both the obvious and not so obvious sexist, misogynist statements and activities (and lots of abuse is based in sexism and misogyny - which is why I think we see it more from men to women or women to children: it feeds into society's existing expectations of power and what's okay etc). We need popular culture to make it clear to teenagers and others that the drama and controlling behaviours are NOT a sign of real love.

And it's not always easy. I'm that woman who calls out things and can SEE people rolling their eyes at my "rampant feminism" or whatever or I get told that I'm too sensitive or I'm seeing sexism where it doesn't exist. And yet, on our school run there are plenty of men doing the school run - brilliant you think? Except I've spoken to many of these men and many of the women and you know what I've noticed - the men only do school run if i's convenient. I've never ONCE heard one of these men say, "yeah, it's a bit tricky because I have to be a bit late on wednesdays as I'm doing school run, but Mary absolutely can't be late on Wednesdays so I have to suck it up" and yet it's something I hear from women over and over and over again. It's such a small thing but it' s asign of the imbalance and different expectations for men and women.

@Bumpitybumper I disagree, it is absolutely victim blaming and if you or the OP wants to educate themselves on trauma you can read the empirical research and evidence widely available. I have already posted at length and addressed your points which are overly simplistic and reductionist.

You didn't suggest any complex reasons though, did you? You suggested only one - lust. You started the thread by stating that there were always red flags but women ignore them due to lust. An interesting choice of word, given its association with 'sin' ie, blame. This shows a singularly poor understanding of the motivations and behaviour of women, and indeed of abuse, and will obviously result in you being corrected by those with experience of something you are merely speculating about.

Id love to see the focus on why are so many men a walking parade of red flags? And where are all the men outraged at this and trying to raise the standards for themselves and others/ calling out others?🤷🏼‍♀️

More often we see society telling women to not trust their gut. To be nice and give second chances. Women face a awful lot of shame and judgement no matter what they do in these circumstances.

I agree - I believe there are almost always signs. Usually minor ones that people brush off.

The key part of why is that women aren’t socialised to pick up on them - quite the opposite in fact.

I think this sort of stuff should be taught in schools - refs flags, boundaries etc.

I think it is possible to accept that red flags have been missed without it being victim blaming. I do not see myself as a victim, I see myself as a survivor - there is a huge difference there for me. Even if I did see myself as a victim, I would not be blaming myself. My inability to see red flags was not my fault, it was the fault of those who raised me in an abusive environment. BUT, I did miss red flags in multiple relationships.

I personally think it is very unusual for someone to have a complete transformation of personality and go from being a healthy, well adjusted individual to being abusive. I accept that it does sometimes happen, but I think those are unusual circumstances.

Googling trauma and abuse would make me doubt that there’s always signs that someone’s abusive/toxic earlier on?

Trauma and abuse can of course lead to people not seeing the signs but that wasn’t what my AIBU was about.

Are you speaking from experience, or judging but have no experience?

I personally think it is very unusual for someone to have a complete transformation of personality and go from being a healthy, well adjusted individual to being abusive

And yet there are many many studies showing that abuse beginning during pregnancy, or shortly after, is absolutely a thing…

Again, I disagree with your interpretation.

I am saying that there are objective signs but that (for many potential reasons) they aren’t seen or recognised. We are all products of our genetics and environments so it isn’t the victim’s fault for not seeing them. But that doesn’t mean they weren’t there.

Please get away from this narrative you’ve built that this is all about victim blaming. There’s a reason that this AIBU has an almost 50/50 split. Reflect on that.

I came on to say something like this.

Nobody has never lost their rag in their entire life.

Nobody has never been mean to someone after having a bad day

Nobody has never suspected their partner's behaviour and asked questions (especially early on when you're likely not sure if you're 'exclusive', I mean 'Are you seeing this man or is he just a friend' is a legit question for the early days).

Nobody has never been depressed after something bad has happened 'Sorry I got angry with you, my best friend (who may not exist but we don't know that yet) is really ill and I am so worried!'' Then that continues always with simialar excuses.

I do know one woman who insists that her husband had no red flags until they were married and I think I believe her? They seemed so, so happy.

He wasn't abusive as such more so neglectful. They'd been together over a decade but once married, he turned on her in the sense that she just practically didnt exist. He was always out with friends, doing things not involving her in the house, leaving her by herself of an evening/weekend-it was like 'got you now, don't need to be nice any more!'.

Thanks. This is a great balanced comment that also explains why people are getting so upset about the post.

No, it's not victim blaming if you aren't blaming the victim. I don't blame the women in these abusive relationships, I blame the men. It still doesn't take away from the fact though that some people are better at reading people and spotting 'red flags' . Like everything else in life, we all sit on a spectrum that is informed by our natural abilities, our upbringing and life experience.

Using the analogy of riddles. All riddles will have enough information to solve them and enough 'clues' but we all differ in our ability to solve them. Some riddles will be solved by 99% of the population whilst others will only be solved by very few people who for whatever reason happen to be very good at riddles. I don't blame people who can't solve the riddles or think they are somehow lesser but I also don't pretend that sufficient clues weren't in the riddle to allow some people to solve them.

I think this distinction is important as we can all work on improving our riddle solving skills and we can work on reading people and spotting red flags. We don't all start at the same level of ability for lots of different reasons but we are all capable of getting better. The alternative is we truly believe that abuse is almost inevitable and there is nothing anyone can do to help women spot the signs earlier. I absolutely can't and won't accept this!

But that doesn’t mean they weren’t there.

Which once again is you refusing to see anything beyond your narrative that in every case there are red flags.

When there isn’t.

There’s a reason that this AIBU has an almost 50/50 split. Reflect on that.

I’m not the one that needs to reflect.

I am saying that there are objective signs but that (for many potential reasons) they aren’t seen or recognised. We are all products of our genetics and environments so it isn’t the victim’s fault for not seeing them. But that doesn’t mean they weren’t there.

You are backtracking though becuase originally as has been pointed out, you said it was "lust". If you're backtracking ebcause you're starting to realise that your initial comment was a bit flippant and didn't take the nuance and complexity into account, great, I'd see this thread as a win.

Fair enough. Perhaps a poor choice of word from me due to its connotations. I always call the beginnings of relationships as being “in lust”. For me, love is something that people develop after a long time in romantic relationships.

For me, I was brought up to beleive (by behavuour of my parents rather than any actual 'teaching' of it) that;

I don't matter
My hurt is something that doesn't matter
We do what Dad says
Dad's allowed to be angry and shout and it doesn't matter if it upsets us
You should do what men say.
You should try to please men at all times otherwise they get angry and hit you or make you cry with their anger

I see this now, as a 40 something
But as a young woman I'd put up with ANYTHING from men, anything to stop them getting angry, anything they wanted went-I was nothing in comparison.

I came out as gay in my twenties but I got with some terrible women whom it was my job to please, too.

I still struggle now, but I am single and determined that it will NOT happen again!

👍🏻

I agree with this. Thank you.

I'm a huge fan of this article: https://drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html

I think there are usually behaviours that women don't notice or tolerate because they aren't bad enough to reach a threshold. The massive personality change that a man comes when a woman gets pregnant is usually based in something, even if you were unaware of it beforehand.